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Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Monthly Tournaments , Results ,Tournament Ideas Etc.

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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Salbei » 10 Jan 2011, 15:38

Added Aswan Jaguars report for Group A. This leads to:

Score Overview Group A

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Shantak 34 points (Salbei 6 / Jatill 5 / Shantak 8 / Aww 6 / Cognis 3 / AJ 6) @ 50% win rate (40/80)
Aww 25 points (Salbei 4 / Jatill 6 / Shantak 3 / Aww 5 / Cognis 4 / AJ 3) @ 33,75% win rate (27/80)
Jatill 38 points (Salbei 5 / Jatill 6 /Shantak 6 / Aww 6 / Cognis 6 / AJ 9) @ 56,96% win rate (45/79)
240sxForever 42 points (Salbei 6 / Jatill 6 / Shantak 9 / Aww 6 / Cognis 9 / AJ 6) @ 54,67% win rate (41/75)

240sxForever is still untouchable, but Jatill did quite a huge jump and is now at the 2nd place (4 points ahead of Shantak).Jatill reached an impressive 77% win rate at Aswan Jaguars report, helps his overall win rate quite a lot and in terms of win rate Jatill is first and also has got the most wins (prolly beat the most player decks as AI, didn´t check it) - and still Jatill is "only" second in terms of points.

I really think a 2-1 (player/AI) should reward the AI with a point.Maybe for the next tournament.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby jatill » 10 Jan 2011, 16:08

I agree with the 2-1 giving the AI 1 point. As it stands now, there's no reward for when my deck makes you go 2-1 as opposed to somenone else's deck. Like you said, next tournament would be a good time to start that policy.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Cognis » 10 Jan 2011, 18:25

Then we should scale 1-2 and 0-2 results as well. Maybe to 2 and 4 points because if we just give more points to the AI it would get points in 3 out of 4 situations and the player only in 2 and even then not much.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Aswan jaguar » 10 Jan 2011, 21:30

I agree,with giving 1p for a 2-1 AI loss,although it seems strange that a humans win will give the same points to an AI loss.
I wonder if that is going to make people less creative in tournaments since decks that can't be played fairly by AI and target for human wins will probably vanish.It would be really foolish to built complicated combo decks which are not AI friendly because only the human wins for them won't be enough to advance in later rounds.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Salbei » 10 Jan 2011, 22:31

Suggestion:
A match is worth 3 points, distributed the following way:

2-0 Human 3, AI 0
2-1 Human 2, AI 1
1-2 Human 1, AI 2
0-2 Human 0, AI 3

Example :(my round1 report)

Shantak (2-0/1-2)(2-0/1-2)(2-0/0-2)
old score: (+2/+0)(+2/+0)(+2/+0) = 6
new score: (+3/+1)(+3/+1)(+3/+0) = 11

Aww (2-1/0-2)(2-1/0-2)(2-0/0-2)
old score: (+1/+0)(+1/+0)(+2/+0) = 4
new score: (+2/+0)(+2/+0)(+3/+0) = 7

Jatill (2-1/0-2)(2-0/1-2)(2-0/0-2)
old score: (+1/+0)(+2/+0)(+2/+0)=5
new score: (+2/+0)(+3/+0)(+3/+0)=8

240sx (2-0/0-2)(2-0/0-2)(2-0/0-2)
old score:(+2/+0)(+2/+0)(+2/+0)=6
new score:(+3/+0)(+3/+0)(+3/+0)=9

Shantak 6 <- old vs new-> 11
Aww 4 <- old vs new-> 7
Jatill 5 <- old vs new-> 8
240sx 6 <- old vs new-> 9

With the old system Shantak+240sx would be even (despite Shantaks AI wins). With the suggested system Shantak would be 2 points ahead (2 AI wins).
Also notice the gap between Shantak and Aww.
Aww would fall behind -2 with the old and -4 with the suggested system (compared to Shantak).

This way a good AI performance is absolute necessary if you want to compete in a tournament.
You can no longer play fancy combos the AI can´t handle and pray that your human score is good enough to get out of the round.You NEED AI wins along with your "good" human score to get out of a round.
Also it is no longer possible that a single (lucky?) 0-2 AI win is going to negate 2 0-2 human games.



Example2:

Shantak vs Aww (2-0/1-2)
Shantak +3 (2-0) +1 (1-2) =4 points /// (2 points old)
Aww +2(2-1) +0(0-2) =2 points /// (1 point old)

The main difference is that you not only loose just a single point for a 2-1 game but that your opponent gains that "lost" point. So instead of "falling behind" -1 you fall behind -2 points to that player.

Example 3:
Shantak vs 240sx (1-2/0-2) // Cognis report
Shantak +1 (1-2) +0 (0-2)= 1 points (0 points old)
240sx +3(2-0) +2 (2-1) = 5 points (5 points old)

No big difference here. Shantak wouldn´t come out with nothing while 240sx still gets the 5 points he would have got with the old system.You would gain less points for a 1-2 win (as AI).

Example 4:
Shantak vs Aww (2-0/2-0) /// Shantaks report
Shantak +3(2-0) +3(2-0) = 6 points (7 points old)
Aww 0 (0-2) 0 (0-2) = 0 points (0 points old)

Just a minimal difference at the highest possible outcome of a match.The impact is slightly lower, but still high enough to make a clear difference of both players at the final score.You would gain less points for a AI clean sweep.

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Overall the AI wins (1-2 // 0-2) will generate less points while the much more common 2-1 games will now grant both players some points.
Instead of just loosing a single point as a Player the AIs deck now actively benefits from the 2-1 AND cost the Player his point.
I´m against additional points for AI wins (1-2 / 0-2) the "bonus" points you earn are more than enough, plus you punish the Player who lost already by denying him his points.
Sidenote: It also works the other way around.A 1-2 loss would now grant the player 1 point instead of 0 points.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby aww1979 » 10 Jan 2011, 23:22

In the middle cases:
2-1 Human 2, AI 1
1-2 Human 1, AI 2

There is no difference between, this, for instance, and just giving the human 1 point for a 2-1 win and the AI 1 point for an AI win, except when there are groups like this. In 1v1 it is exactly the same whichever way you do it.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Salbei » 10 Jan 2011, 23:32

Yeah of course. But the main issues i have with the current system ARE group related.

Jatill currently got the highest win rate at group A.
He won the most games. So why is he 2nd and not 1st?

Imo the +3 / +5 thing for AI wins is way too much. A single report of a 0/2 win has got too much influence on the final standings.A 0/2 AI win equals more than 2 2-0 wins as a player!
Worst case - you reward a Player because the Tester doesn´t have a clue how to play a deck with the highest possible points.Thats just not right.

Remember that Crop Rotation bug where the AI was able to sacrifice a Land and "Tinker" a Creature into play ?
People might aswell abuse those things and just screw their "human" games because their AI wins will more than make up for that.Even the Manalink AI can win with a Turn1 Progenitus ...
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Aswan jaguar » 11 Jan 2011, 12:58

Jatill can you do smt so that the draw effects of Handicap cards don't trigger when you try to use autosave - save, so that stuck-crashed games can be continued.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby jatill » 11 Jan 2011, 13:08

Aswan jaguar wrote:Jatill can you do smt so that the draw effects of Handicap cards don't trigger when you try to use autosave - save, so that stuck-crashed games can be continued.
I can't fix that, sorry.

Re: points
I am still strongly in favor of awarding the AI extra points for wins. Why? Because it is REALLY HARD for the AI to win. If you build your deck so well that it can win, you deserve a massive points bonus.

Maybe award the human 1 point for each game win, and give the AI 1.5?
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Aswan jaguar » 11 Jan 2011, 16:19

Jatill wrote
I am still strongly in favor of awarding the AI extra points for wins. Why? Because it is REALLY HARD for the AI to win. If you build your deck so well that it can win, you deserve a massive points bonus.

Maybe award the human 1 point for each game win, and give the AI 1.5?
I totally agree,but I think 1 point bonus should be granded for a 0-2 AI win.

Human-AI 2-0=2p
Human-AI 2-1=2p-1.5
Human-AI 1-2=1p-3p
Human-AI 0-2=4p
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Aswan jaguar » 12 Jan 2011, 11:44

Shantak wrote:
Notes: I'm lacking black mana while my hand fills with black cards. That becomes my doom, as I don't draw any more mana than the initial two in my hand while AI has many creatures against my Flying Men and soon-to-be-his Ghazban Ogre.
If the original hand in my deck,has not mana of most of your cards please mulligun,people.Like the case above,as it depends in early attacks.Especially if you BB,UU,GG creatures and not a single mana of that kind,most probably would be suicidal not to Mulligun.

After Shantaks report,although its still early 2x 0-2,and only 2p scored most probably takes me out of the 2round.

Jattil I strongly think that we stopped bidding for stronger sets a bit early,I did 3,4 more bids to make people with strong sets bid less but I strongly think I should make Salbei go lower at least in life.I believe he will be the winner although my heart will be with less power card sets.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion - decks due 1/1/11

Postby juzamjedi » 12 Jan 2011, 23:43

Shantak wrote:
juzamjedi wrote:OK, so time to unveil my secret weapon. The most broken card in my pool is named Umezawa - Tetsuo Umezawa.
After playing with and against your deck I now realize how Tetsuo Umezawa is broken and I'm glad he is - it made playing far more interesting.


And just now I realized that I maybe should have changed Grim Discovery for Greed perhaps... since I wouldn't have won that last 2-1 game without it. Should I let that be, replay it or judge it a loss? And do we change Grim Discovery for Greed then?
Sure, go ahead and replay the match. You could replay all of my matches if you felt the need. I apologize for introducing that error due to me using the constructed version when I built my deck. :oops:
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Salbei » 13 Jan 2011, 12:03

The first 2 complete reports for Group B are in (Shantak and Aswan Jaguar).

Score Overview Group B

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Salbei 27 points (Shan 11 / AJ 16) @ 76,92% (20/26)
AswanJaguar 6 points (Shan 2 / AJ 4) @ 35,71% (10/28)
Monopoman 7 points (Shan 5 / AJ 2) @ 37,04% (10/27)
Juzamjedi 13 points (Shan 10 / AJ 3) @ 51,72% (15/29)

I guess it will only get interesting who gets the 2nd place (to advance) at this moment, and even that is already quite obvious when you look at the win rate.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby Salbei » 14 Jan 2011, 20:52

Cognis finished his report for Group B :
(Shantak/AswanJaguar/Cognis reported)

Score Overview Group B

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Salbei 38 points (Shan 11 / AJ 16 / Cog 11) @ 73,17% (30/41)
AswanJaguar 10 points (Shan 2 / AJ 4 / Cog 4) @ 38,1% (16/42)
Monopoman 13 points (Shan 5 / AJ 2 / Cog 6) @ 41,03% (16/39)
Juzamjedi 17 points (Shan 10 / AJ 3 / Cog 4) @ 47,62% (20/42)

Monopoman could catch up a bit to Juzamjedi who has still got a 4 point lead.While i am at 38 points after only 3 reports ... this is insane.Like i´ve said the earlier the only interesting thing left in this group is going to be the 2nd place.So please keep the reports coming - just two days left.
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Re: Jan Tournament - Single Set Audtion

Postby aww1979 » 14 Jan 2011, 21:05

I've done half of group B so far. Interestingly, the only game I've lost in group B at this point was once with salbei's deck when I couldn't get white mana and AI got a massive start. I will try to finish the group, but some personal stuff just came up today and I might not be able to.
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