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different Limited idea

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different Limited idea

Postby Salbei » 16 Dec 2010, 14:52

An idea for a different "Limited" Tournament:

You got 50 (just an example) points to buy cards.

Common cards cost 1
Uncommons cost 3
Rare cards cost 6

example C/U/R list | Open
common spells(1):
Duress / Stupor / Terror / Diabolic Edict
Healing Salve / Disenchant / Chastise / Pacifism
Lightning Bolt / Demolish / Fissure / Arc Lightning
Giant Growth / Creeping Mold / Desert Twister / Cultivate
Mana Leak / Inspiration / Mind Control / Negate
Adventuring Gear / Fellwar Stone / Rod of Ruin / Warlord´s Axe / Wasteland /

common creatures(1):
Black Knight / Blood Seeker / Cuombajj Witches / Bloodghast / Juzam Djinn
White Knight / Wall of Omens / Soul Warden / Steppe Lynx / Felidar Sovereign
Blood Knight / Ember Hauler / Mogg Fanatic / Fire Servant / Ball Lightning
Sakura Tribe Elder / River Boa / Mire Boa / Garruks Companion / Emperor Crocodile
Scroll Thief / Man o War / Water Elemental / Hedron Crab / Prodigal Sorcerer
Solemn Simulacrum / Dragon Engine / Bottle Gnomes / Clay Statue

uncommon spells(3):
Hymn to Tourach / Drain Life / Hideous End / Diabolic Tutor
Day of Judgement / Oblivion Ring / Swords To Plowshares / Enlightened Tutor
Fireball / Starstorm / Fork / Incinerate
Might of Oaks / Gaeas Anthem / Rancor / Recollect
Counterspell / Concentrate / Confiscate / Jace´s Erasure
Darksteel Ingot / Sword of Vengeance / Millstone / The Rack / Black Vise / Ivory Tower / Fetch Lands / Mishras Factory

uncommon creatures(3):
Hypnotic Spectre / Nantuko Shade / Gatekeeper of Malakir / Sorceress Queen
Spectral Lynx / Paladin En-Vec / Heavy Ballista / Angel of Mercy
Flametongue Kavu / Hellfire Mongrel / Chandra´s Spitfire / Eron the Relentless
Tarmogoyf / Eternal Witness / Rhox / Killer Bees
Mulldrifter / Vesuvan Doppelganger / Clone / Phantom Warrior
Juggernaut / Beast of Burden / Steel Overseer / Su-Chi / Triskelion

rare spells(6):
Mind Sludge / Bitterblossom
Wrath of God / Luminarch Ascension
Overwhelming Stampede / Centaur Glade
Pyromancer Ascension / Hammer of Bogardan
Cryptic Command / Bribery
Sol Ring / Mirror Universe / Whispersilk Cloak / Loxodon Warhammer / All is Dust / Mishras Workshop / Dual Lands

rare creatures(6):
Stinkweed Imp / Ob Nixilis, the Fallen / Vampire Nighthawk / Grave Titan
Felidar Sovereign / Wall of Reverance / Battlegrace Angel / Sun Titan
Shivan Dragon / Kiki-Jiki / Obsidian Fireheart / Inferno Titan
Lhurgoyf / Force of Nature / Golgari Grave-Troll / Primordial Titan
Mahamothi Djinn / Sphinx of Jwar Isle / Frost Titan
Platinum Angel / Ulamog´s Crusher


After you "bought" the cards you build your 40 (or 60) card deck out of them.
Basic lands are free and people might also get a Planeswalker of their choice ontop (just an example).

Just an idea to keep things interesting.

so with 50 points available the outcome could look like this:

example buys | Open
2 rare (12 points)
8 uncommon (24 points)
0 commons
=
10 cards for 36 points . Still got 14 points to spend.

4 rare (24 points)
6 uncommon (18 points)
8 commons (8 points)
=
18 cards for 50 points - add 22 lands and your done. Prolly gonna be too many lands so you should downgrade a card or two to regain points.
1 rare = 2 uncommons = 4 commons

or

2 rare (12 points)
12 uncommon (36 points)
2 common (2 points)
=
16 cards for 50 points - add 24 lands and your done.
Way too much land for a 40 card deck so you should make adjustments.
or

3 rare (18 points)
7 uncommon (21 points)
11 commons (11 points)
=
21 cards for 50 points - add 19 lands and your deck is done.
You could still "upgrade" cards.
4 commons = 2 uncommons = 1 rare


The 50 points in that example are really "tight" so we might want to slightly increase that a little.Was just an example afterall to show you what i have in mind.

The C/U/R list has got to be quite balanced and requires a lot of fine tuning.Its what makes or breaks this thing.

What do you think about the general idea?Is it too complex ?
Last edited by Salbei on 16 Dec 2010, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: different Limited idea

Postby jatill » 16 Dec 2010, 15:20

The tricky part is knowing what rarity things are. There are several wrong rarities in your example. (ex: Sol Ring and Mind Sludge are uncommon, not rare)
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Re: different Limited idea

Postby Salbei » 16 Dec 2010, 15:23

Hehe i know. I didn´t mean the actual rarity of the cards.

In that example list Sol Ring is ment to be a "Rare" (worth a lot of points) just for the sake of that tournament and to "balance" the card somehow.
Theoreticly you could play 2 or 3 Sol Ring without endangering the overall tournament balance. And that is the beauty about that list.

That C/U/R list has got to have a really good balance.But thats a different point.
This also would be another "skill indicator" to spot cards that are "too cheap".

"Gamebreakers" shouldn´t be too cheap to acquire and it is really tough to create a balanced list.Maintaining the balance is getting harder and harder with each new card you add to the list.The list i´ve posted there was just an example of how you could mix different sets and try to balance things out.

Fork shouldn´t be an uncommon, but i had a bit of trouble to get a 4th card that is "worth" the uncommon slot and not strong enough to be a rare.

Juzam Djinn is a common in that list. Pretty much just to keep the matches fast paced. There is enough cheap removal to handle it and also a bunch of creatures who are "immune" to him.

Things like Baneslayer Angel are also tough to include since you either got a few cards to "counter" it or plain die to it.
Mulldrifter is quite a lot stronger in that list than it would be normal since there almost no other creatures with flying in there.You can create some very neat scenarios with these lists -> check out Angel of Mercy , usually nobody would use this one but in that format it would be a decent choice.You turn a mediocore card into a pretty good one just by adjusting the other available cards.
I even included Eron the Relentless - a card that i NEVER have played with before and i got a pretty good feeling that someone who picks it will have a good time with it.

Overall it is tough to create a balanced list. How do you compare Regrowth , Rancor and Tarmogoyf ? All of them are good cards - but they got nothing in common where you could say this one should be a rare and this one should be common.

If you include too many "stall" cards, then it is going to be a boring stallfest.
If you include too many "power" cards , then it is going to be pure luck based.

Afterall that C/U/R list is what could make this Tournament very interesting or a complete failure. So a decent list is really needed for this.As long as everything is not completly imbalanced then it is going to be fun.People get to choose their deck afterall and everyone has got the same choices what cards to play with.It is going to be extremly unlikly that 2 persons will play even a simmilar deck unless the list is obviously flawed.

You could use a C/U/R list that consists of the least used cards and will be surprised how much fun it is going to be.
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Re: different Limited idea

Postby juzamjedi » 17 Dec 2010, 02:43

Your proposal is very interesting. I definitely like the idea and am already thinking up how I would game the system. 8)

It would be hard to balance this out correctly. Suppose for a second we use the "normal" rarity of all cards to determine cost (ignoring reprints at different rarity like Serra Angel).

Example of why using normal rarity, all cards is bad | Open
3 Wheel of Fortune 18 points
32 Lightning Bolt 32 points
25 Mountain


Suppose we limit card choices to only the pool of cards you selected. Mulldrifter and Lightning Bolt look undervalued in this card pool. I agree that this is something that should be skill testing and that's the whole point of a tournament like this one. This is a good thing.

Example deck using Salbei's C/U/R list | Open
2 Sol Ring 12 points
5 Mulldrifter 10 points
2 Fireball 4 points
24 Lightning Bolt 24 points
17 Mountain
10 Island


Example deck that actually sticks to 4x limit | Open
4 Mogg Fanatic 4 points
4 Ember Hauler 4 points
4 Blood Knight 4 points
4 Ball Lightning 4 points
4 Flametongue Kavu 8 points
4 Lightning Bolt 4 points
4 Incinerate 8 points
4 Arc Lightning 4 points
4 Black Vise 8 points
2 Wasteland 2 points
22 Mountain


I think your proposal to come up with your own points system makes more sense overall. Seeing where my values might be different from yours is the most interesting part of this idea. However, you should state the 4 card limit - assuming you want that to apply? Not sure if you did.

If you are going to do this you might as well have another level for Mythic power level creatures and spells. This way you can allow all cards in Manalink to be used, but have a very high cost for the best cards. Baneslayer Angel, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Ancestral Recall are clearly Mythic for example.

Creating your own points system is awesome and I think you will do a better job than simply using the default "rarity" of a card. The other really cool thing is if we did this a second time we can "upgrade" spells or creatures later if they were played a lot or "downgrade" cards that don't get enough love.
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Re: different Limited idea

Postby jatill » 17 Dec 2010, 13:12

The game has the AI Base vaule, would could be used, perhaps.
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Re: different Limited idea

Postby Salbei » 17 Dec 2010, 20:46

Sorry i didn´t mention it, the 4 card rule should obviously included.
I´ll try to work out a "working" list that should be ready for februrary unless somebody else wants to host that tournament.
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