Future (or lack thereof) of Shandalar development

[Haytrid]

So I check back here about every six months or so to see if anything has happened with Shandalar. I'm always so sad to see that it hasn't. I love Shandalar and play it regularly and would love to see new cards added to it and some bugs fixed, especially the one where the computer gets in an endless loop of deciding what to do.

So basically as I understand it, we need an Assembly programmer to move the Shandalar portion forward?

Can someone post a somewhat comprehensive list of resources/tasks that would be needed to make this happen so we could start networking and matching people with tasks?

I was thinking if we found the people needed to make this happen, a list of what would need to be done, maybe we could start a kickstarter project?

Thoughts?

[hip63]

OK, I'm just the installer guy 'round here but I'll try to answer some of this and if I'm wrong on anything, others can correct me.

So first off, no one here has the source code for Shandalar, period. That makes doing anything for Shandalar extremely hard and complicated task. Even with source code, it would be hard, without source code, it becomes incredibly difficult.

Honestly, it's a miracle that what's already been done, has been done at all.

New Cards for Shandalar: Ok so this one may be nigh to impossible. You can't just throw new cards in the game. To add new cards (especially "newer" cards) so would require a major re-write of the Shandalar AI code to even comprehend the cards much less use them effectively and as stated above, without the original source code (which may not even exist any more) the job would be extremely hard.

Yes, an Assembly Programmer would be nice to have but that still would not be an instant cure. Just because some knows assembly does not mean they are instantly going to be able to make drastic changes that would be needed to add new cards. It would take a massive amount of reverse engineering of the game to even attempt to do such a thing. Also people with such skills do not just materialize out of thin air. Not only would such person need assembly knowledge, he/she would have to very, very, VERY good at it. I suspect the right word would be "gifted" and he/she would have to be willing/able to put in the hundreds of hours of work that would be needed to do it. In effect, you're practically talking about a new game.

Only an assembly coder with a deep love of the game would even bother trying. (A tall order to fill)

Bug Fixes? Maybe, but again, you gotta find someone with a very high skill level to even make the attempt and no one is beating down the door for the job.

While I hate to rain on parades and I too would love to see these kinds of changes, what your asking would is extremly difficult thing, if not nearly impossible.

hip63

[Haytrid]

Thank you for the response, I had read as much here and there in various threads but I thought there was more progress done.

For example, hasn't there been any progress on the "evil" side of this project that would apply in any way to Shandalar development? For example, I thought the "evil" side was already figuring out how to script and program not just new cards but new mechanics as well with AI support.

Also having read previously on these forums I thought they had a pretty good idea about how to pull some of the stuff out of the hard coded shandalar/magic .exe's and build outside libraries and "C" programs linked back to the .exe's. I'm not a coder so I don't know the terminology but I thought they had reverse engineered it to the point they were staring at a wall of assembly code trying to figure out where the stuff was at in there or discussing converting portions of it to "C".

Also, there must be a gifted assembler out there somewhere and even if they don't have a love of the game if we were to do a kickstarter or other fund raiser even at hundreds of hours, lets even call it 200 hours, at 100 to 150 an hour 20k to 30k seems like pretty small chunk for a proper crowd-sourced project especially since it seems like I'm always seeing how tens of thousands of copies of this game are still downloaded off of torrents every year.

It just seems like there is enough interest in the game that with some organization and a funding source maybe something could be done here.

Now if some coders come on and say ummm, no, your delusional, we are not nearly as close as you seem to think we are then that's a different story I guess.

But if they jump on and say if we had "x" resources and "y" time then we could put a price to "x" and "y" and see really how much time and money we are talking to get a better idea of if it's a feasible amount. Tally up the goals and cost, throw up a kickstarter, nothing to lose really.

I'm not a coder but I've been managing IT projects for over 18 years and I could definitely assist with evaluating project boundaries, writing project specs and business plans.

[hip63]

Ah but here IS something to lose as there are certain "legalities" involved here. WotC has left us alone because they most likely do not see this project as a "threat" to their current products. (and I'm pretty sure they know we're here, they are not stupid) However if we started raising money to hire out a development team, then WotC then may very well see that as a "threat" and then it all goes to sh** really quick when the lawyers get involved. Abandoned Ware or not, we are still "techincally" distributing copywrited material without written consent. We would lose in any court of law, no "ifs" "ands" or "buts" withstanding. Microprose maybe dead, but WotC still own the rights to all things MTG. And that could be enough to scare off many "professional" coders from considering such a project. (Getting "busted" for a coding project does NOT look good on a resume, lol).

So if we raise a dev army, WotC could possible send their own army (of lawyers) to meet us in (legal) battle.

Also, one reason there are so many downloads is because, well, it's free. So I can't see all those past downloaders suddenly opening up their wallets (especically for something they already have, for free). Some long time fans might but that still may not be enough.

Again, I hope I'm wrong here and perhaps someone with more insite will correct me, but still all I see in such an endeavour is huge mountain to have to climb, even if we had a perfect storm of luck.

However, should your wishes come to pass, I'd be happy to write an installer for it. (make that "double" happy!)

In the end, I hope I'm wrong but it still a pretty tall order to fill in any event.

hip63

[Aswan jaguar]

As said without the source code the task is way too difficult (as devs mention)and if you see the posts here in Shandalar you will find couple of guys that were interested in developing Shandalar and I assume they had good knowledge of Assembly tried to find interest on such a project but nobody answered and on their own they knew such a project is impossible.

[CirothUngol]

*sigh* What to say...

Is it impossible? No, of course not.
Is it improbable? Oh yea, big time.

You can look at Manalink 3.0 (evil!) as a stellar example of what can be achieved by talented, dedicated, and willing developers... but it's taken over a decade to reach its present state. This is despite the efforts of some truly phenomenally gifted developers (Mok, SkyMarshall, HarryPitfall, Snacko, Jatill, Gargaroz, et al). Development really only took off after the introduction of C Programming (who did that?), because so few people are accustomed to writing directly in ASM.

...and not that finding a willing participant will be enough; they have to be up to the task. Hell, I know assembly (it's actually a rather simple procedural language), but I'm not capable of navigating the post-compiled cacophony of instructions that is Shandalar.exe.
That's not Assembly... that's Machine Language.

...and then there's the card limit. Whereas Magic.exe originally had a 2000 card limit, Shandalar.exe seems to have a hard-wired 722 card limit. Of course, Manalink 3.0 has shown us that such a limit can be broken... and we all remember how easy that wasn't.

In a nutshell, the amount of effort involved would be tantamount to producing the game from scratch. Then you'd get to use a high-level language and be much more productive. I honestly feel that Manalink only exists because of Mok's curiosity. Oh sure, it wouldn't have achieved anywhere near it's current state without the diligent efforts of all the other Devs, but no programmer in their right mind looks at the fresh de-compile of an executable like Shandalar.exe and then decides to try re-writing a major portion of the code. Lucky for us Genius rides a thin line with Insanity... which makes Mok just crazy enough to do it. ^_^

[Haytrid]

All of my hopes and dreams shattered! Nooooo. Sad because I know WOTC won't make another game like Shandalar because they have become greedy shit-bags that don't care about their fans entertainment needs. I had hoped that with all of the work done on the evil side of this project that something would translate back over to Shandalar. Sigh, back to play another game of Shandalar with my 722 cards .

[CirothUngol]

You could always check out Forge's Quest Mode. According to the developer, it was directly inspired by Shandalar.

[jiansonz]

Sigh, back to play another game of Shandalar with my 722 cards .

722? I thought the number was 647. Or weren't you talking about how many different cards there are in the game?

[gmzombie]

I think if one has a good understanding of asm they could in fact recode the game much like shandalar and in doing so you would probably fix some old issues with manalink as they were originally both setup about the same.

[CirothUngol]

722? I thought the number was 647.

722 is the "hard-wired" card limit for Shandalar.exe mentioned by Snako.
I think there are actually 649 usable cards in Shandalar. The 647 available in Duel plus Akron Legionnaire and Stone-Throwing Devils.

[chillpenguin]

Wouldn't it be easier (and better, probably) to make a new game from scratch? Why are people so interested in keeping shandalar alive when we could have a better game? Don't get me wrong I play shandalar all the time, I love that game. But it would be a dream come true if someone made a new shandalar. Shandalar 2! Why not?