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SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

MicroProse's Shandalar Campaign Game, now with new cards & a new look!

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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 16 Aug 2016, 13:20

Still no Custody Battle :(
With much cheese,
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 28 Sep 2016, 12:20

What exactly is keeping Kamigawa "flip" cards from being in? They're essentially very simmilar to cards with transform, and those are in.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby Korath » 28 Sep 2016, 12:47

Comprehensive rules for them are different in edge cases that are a worse match for the engine's default behavior. (For example, if you Clone a transformed Village Ironsmith // Ironfang, you get an Ironfang that can't transform; if you Clone a flipped Hired Muscle // Scarmaker, you get an unflipped Hired Muscle that can flip.) Mostly, though, it's a matter of not having gotten around to implementing those edge cases - transform cards were a higher priority because we were in a transform block.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 28 Sep 2016, 14:42

Cool.

Well, if there IS a way to nudge you towards implementing a bunch of the split cards from Kamigawa, let's say they're on my whishlist.

No idea if any of these are in Manalink, but hey, that's bound to have to get an update and some of these might be simple enough to throw in when that happens:

I've got:

Skulltap (There's a need for black card draw which doesn't cost life for low-end opponents.)
Altar's Reap (Same thing, but instant)

(But those might be not-allready-in because of having an additional cost?)

Cruel Deceiver (REALLY could use a tame black 2 drop spirit)
Deathknell Kami (Mostly the same)
Skulking Ghost (It's actually a rather good card, and also a useful 2 drop)

Hearth Kami (Neeeeeed that red 2 drop spirit)

Nyxborn Eidolon (err, in case you get around to bestow, ofc, same reason, a semi-senisble 2 drop spirit)

Buried Alive (we had a discussion about the AI being weird with it, but if you can get it in get it in, please! It's a cornerston of non-degenerate reanimation decks, among other things)

Rishadan Cutpurse
Rishadan Footpad
Rishadan Brigand

Soul Strings (Better than it looks, and yeah, there's similar stuff in allready, but this one's nice and sneaky)
Steal Strength (Legendary card , there's a similar one in Kaladesh)

And if there's an actual way to get these things in

Shimmering Glasskite
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Jetting Glasskite

Hopes not very high for those as it looks complicated, but hey, one can hope. Whipping up that ability somehow also enables a bunch of other stuff, too.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby Korath » 28 Sep 2016, 15:41

A card not being in Manalink isn't a bar to it being put into Shandalar anymore, so long as the set as a whole has been released in Manalink. Since I've already locked the next version to the Manalink Kaladesh release, anything released in KLD or earlier in a tournament-legal set is fair game.

Most of these particular cards are still too difficult or awkward, though.

Skulltap and Altar's Reap are out because they have additional costs. I have added a bare handful of such cards - Culling the Weak and Infernal Plunge because they're nearly identical to Sacrifice, an original MicroProse card that needed to be rewritten to be cast at non-interrupt speed; and Tinker because it's a critically important card for Vintage, but I should have skipped it even so - but they'll all need to be rewritten again once I've implemented additional costs in the engine itself, where they belong.

Skulking Ghost's always been a particular favorite of mine, but triggering on being targeted can't be done correctly in this engine until triggers go onto the stack. (This is why.) That, in turn, can't be done until 1) I've rewritten all MicroProse cards that have any sort of trigger, and some of those are doozies, and 2) I've repaired my decompilation setup. Current estimate for that is another 20-30 days that I work on that and nothing else Shandalar-related, judging from how far I got in the first two.

Adding triggered - not activated - abilities to cards is possible, but still very clumsy. So is basing an X cost on some property of a target: take a look at the implementation for Spell Blast in src/shandalar/counterspells.cpp and compare it to, say, Clash of Wills.

Buried Alive is still perfectly doable if you accept that the AI won't play it even close to correctly. It'll have the same issues as it currently does with Jester's Cap, only more so: since it'll be tutoring from its own library, it'll be able to tell that it'll never be able to draw that Akroma, Angel of Wrath or whatever, and it won't like that even if it doesn't have the manabase to ever hard-cast her.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 28 Sep 2016, 17:14

I think I'd settle for any kind of Buried Alive port. And anything else from there which isn't too much hassle. I kinda threw the stuff out there in case it points you in a direction when you have several to pick from.

As for mechanics - flip cards (the rather basic ones) would be really nice, and arcane spells whenever you get to them. Even the lame / mundane looking ones.* Especially those, in fact -

| Open
Kodama's Reach (!!!) - spiritcraft friendly ramp
Lava Spike (!!!) - used in multi-format burn
Crack the Earth (!!!) - I want it for myself with Akki Blizzard-Herder cheeze
Eye of Nowhere (!!!) - land bounce deck staple + spiritcraft triggers
Reach Through Mists (!!!) - great card in the right deck + sc trigg
Rend Flesh (!!!) - black spirit staple, kick-ass card
Footsteps of the Goryo
Otherworldly Journey (!!!) - +1/+1 flicker, what's not to like
Terashi's Verdict - sc friendly kill
Peer Through Depths
Swallowing Plague - really good, nicely balanced card for low lives decks
First Volley - same
Crushing Pain - rather cool to give the AI
Terashi's Grasp - lovely
Toils of Night and Day
Waking Nightmare (!!!) - nice, standard discard with sc trigger
Path of Anger's Flame
Unearthly Blizzard - win card
Unchecked Growth (!!!) - green spirit staple
Terashi's Cry - win card
Blind with Anger - spirit friendly threaten
Sunder from Within
Joyous Respite
Uproot
Ribbons of the Reikai
Call for Blood
Death of a Thousand Stings (!!!) - cool slow stinger mana sink
Feast of Worms
Three Tragedies
Pull Under


Are mostly pretty banal, except they are needed in semi-stable low power decks where they're supposed to trigger various spiritcraft triggers or interact with Spirits. A rather simple example is Loam Dweller being uncommon mostly because he combos with Kodama's Reach. You cast him turn 2, and you get to put both lands into play turn 3. Also, some of these are perfectly playable in regular decks, and even used in those. Like Lava Spike . I even left a bunch out, and the ones with little !!! next to them are particularly noteworthy.

So if there's a way to get, say, that bunch in without really having to bust your ass when Splice comes in, it'd be really nice.
I'm honestly less interested in arcane cards with splice than just these regular ones, to compliment a bunch of stuff that's allready in.

And again, that's just nudging, you do your thing.

Oh, one more, minor seeming, reason is that they're a bunch of simple spells which have artworks that mesh well with Khans Block, Portal 3 kingdoms and Kamigawa aesthetically. Having them handy makes making use of the other stuff from those blocks easier to do in ways which don't poke the eye.

---

Oh, and not sure where you are with cycling cards, but I hope the cycling lands are getting in. I'm really curious as to how the AI handles those, and looking forward to sticking them everywhere if it's not artrocious.

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*I wanted to add something to this that's not exactly obvious but I don't want it to feel like badgering you. It's argumentation which I feel like should be there, and still don't feel like you have to do anything because there's some argumentation.

I don't know how far away splice in particular is, could be god knows how far away. Considering how different it is from everything else, might be never for all I know. What's more, once it's in, god alone knows how the AI will handle it. Madness is in, but there doesn't seem to be a way to give it to the AI. That's kinda the important bit - waiting on splice to get arcane at all is very annoying since the basic arcane cards could be used right away, while whether any splicing ever gets done by the AI can easily end up out of anyone's hands.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby gmzombie » 02 Oct 2016, 02:42

What is holding back planeswalkers at this point? is it not having an actual card type or something?
can I maze of ith your snowstorm?

http://home.comcast.net/~gmzombie/index.html old stuff in here. don't use this stuff right now till I get time to get back into it and readjust.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby Korath » 02 Oct 2016, 04:23

Combat AI.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby gmzombie » 04 Oct 2016, 15:08

thanks for the quick response. i have been wondering for a while. :)
can I maze of ith your snowstorm?

http://home.comcast.net/~gmzombie/index.html old stuff in here. don't use this stuff right now till I get time to get back into it and readjust.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby doenerchef » 04 Oct 2016, 17:45

I'd love to see some of the Legacy-grade burn cards in Shandalar. My burn deck is a bit on the crappy side by Legacy standards, at the moment.

What I would like to have are following cards:
Hellspark Elemental
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Rift Bolt
Lava Spike
not sure if following spells are included already
Spark Elemental
Glitterfang
Vexing Devil
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 04 Oct 2016, 22:07

I'd like to use this opportunity to point at that Lava Spike there and go "See, see?" for reasons known to Korath :)

Also, those look like thing that would've been in allready if there wasn't a catch with coding the mechanics. As a bystander, eyeballing it, Spark Elemental is probably in allready, Glitterfang is certainly in (I'm testing an Onslaught + Glitterfang deck for Centaur Warchief ATM).

The rest you'll have to hear from Korath (I'm curious about the viability of suspend since a guy over at the Forge boards was getting snotty about Homarid Spawning Bed not being a good card so I want to make a blue suspend dudes + HSB deck for the AI to prove a point or two).
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby doenerchef » 05 Oct 2016, 06:48

Thanks lujo. My apologies, Spark Elemental and Glitterfang are indeed implemented already.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 26 Oct 2016, 23:49

After quite a bunch of struggling with blue, I've an important question: are cards which have "loses all abilities" , meaning all the blue descendants of Humble , undoable in the engine? Ovinize , Turn to Frog , that sort of thing?

This is not to say I'm not grateful for Diminish , but I've a sinking feeling creeping up on me when I see a lot of blue stuff related to those in there but not those cards. Blue is really bummed for workable combat tricks or even removal. I feel like if they were in I'd just stick one in every single blue deck like I do with fight stuff for greens in the current rework.

Also:

Solitary Confinement
Web of Inertia (The Internet! This + Rest in Peace > Solitary Confinement)
Lost in Thought
Grip of Amnesia (Combo w the internet above, lol, but more for completeness sake)

if those were skipped for not being sexy enough, by all means, do get them in. Lost in Thought is actually a fine card, I've used it in tourneys. I'd ask for Stupefying Touch for nostalgia but I don't imagine it's doable. Darn, that also probably means Lost in Tought is undoable, too.. :(

--

Oh and:

Aquitect's Will if possible.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 29 Oct 2016, 19:29

I would love se see Sea Scryer in. I've been told the AI is bad with mana laundering effects, but the mana laundering is not what I want it in for, and can be completely turned off. A mono-blue mana dork with a relevant creature type and a name that fits in with Seer and even Astral Visionary, I so wish it could get in.

On that note I would also like to point out that someone else has asked for Manamorphose besides me. The explanation that the AI is bad with mana laundering doesn't make sense. For two reasons: The AI is intolerably terrible with vanilla creatures and there's no way for it to suck with Manamorphose more than it does with a million other things which are somehow in the pool. The second reason is that the point of Manamorphose isn't accurately laundering mana at all, but just effectively cycling for 0, which is kinda hard to screw up.

I do understand if there are some plans to try to do mana-laundering rigth eventualy.

---

Oh, oh, Sundial of the Infinite if possible.
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Re: SHANDALAR CARD wishlist! ask for NEW cards!

Postby lujo » 10 Nov 2016, 02:08

I wanted to thank Korath for porting in Stream of Acid. I was sorting out some stuff on Forge which included getting to the bottom of what the first printing of certain cards is and I ran into that card, thought that it would be awesome if it was actually ported.

I also found out that some cards orignaly from Starter1999 aren't flagged as such in the deckbuilder, while some are. The expansion symbol is cool and obscure, it would be quite nice if they had their first printing properly noted. I'll report them formally.

The missing Starter1999 first-print cards are:

20 R Loyal Sentry
25 U Royal Trooper
139 U Pride of Lions

But I can understand why they're not in yet. Still, a lot of props for puting the other ones in ^^ I adore the portal stuff. Also seein the original Vizzerdrix and Trained Orgg art, as well as the expansion symbol was great! I really hope the mislabeled ones are not too much of a bother to fix, because they involve Silverback Ape, who's kind of an Ape Lord staple. I'm also quite a Pride of Lions fan, got a bunch of tourney use out of them when they were in 7th, but I get why they're not here.

Anyway, silly things but =D>
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