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[Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

MicroProse's Shandalar Campaign Game, now with new cards & a new look!

Moderators: BAgate, drool66, stassy, Aswan jaguar, gmzombie, CCGHQ Admins

Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby BAgate » 08 Feb 2017, 23:51

All manalink/shandalar downloads will trigger antivirus warnings. Some of the dll's behave in a manner that AV software interprets as a virus. So while I won't vouch for any specific download, in general they are safe.

All that said, Korath has asked that shandalar files no longer be shared. Let's please respect his wishes.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 09 Feb 2017, 18:54

BAgate wrote:All manalink/shandalar downloads will trigger antivirus warnings. Some of the dll's behave in a manner that AV software interprets as a virus. So while I won't vouch for any specific download, in general they are safe.

All that said, Korath has asked that shandalar files no longer be shared. Let's please respect his wishes.
I can't disagree with this sentiment enough. Korath may never come back to this project, and there are plenty of people interested in playing the largest version. He may not want to continue development, and that's his choice, but i see no reason why we shoudlnt be able to share files we have on our PC.

Korath's work is brilliant and deserves to be enjoyed. The whole reasoning for him removing the download links was bogus anyway - it was an empty threat from a bitter individual.

Apparently the moderation here disagrees as my post was deleted.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby Friendsofsandwiches » 10 Feb 2017, 08:54

Oi...
Sorry, I didn't realize that you had posted an updated version.
Yeah, I think gemcutter's guild was the last update, I think it was up to Eldtrich moon, but I'm not sure how much they were actually able to code in.
If you want, repost the links.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby stassy » 11 Feb 2017, 18:37

You can still share via PM, as like before a full card unlock was available for those who didn't want to win all of the Challenge trials on Manalink.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby BAgate » 13 Feb 2017, 00:04

Sharing via PM is intellectually dishonest. There is no practical difference between sharing via post and PM. If Korath doesn't want it to be shared then it shouldn't be shared, period.

And there is a huge difference between bypassing challenges and distributing the program. Apples and Oranges.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 14 Feb 2017, 04:35

BAgate wrote:Sharing via PM is intellectually dishonest. There is no practical difference between sharing via post and PM. If Korath doesn't want it to be shared then it shouldn't be shared, period.

And there is a huge difference between bypassing challenges and distributing the program. Apples and Oranges.
The other mod disagrees.

Look if you give me a good reason why I shouldn't share this, then fine. I won't. But sorry, Korath not wanting it to be shared isn't a good reason. He's a good dude and did good things. But if he isn't going to continue his work on Shandalar, at the very least people should be able to enjoy what he already did. The second you put your work on the internet is the second you lose the ability to destroy it.

You may feel differently cause I don't see you around the Shandy forum much but I sunk at least 500 hours into Korath's Shandalar upgrades. They're important to me and most other people around this subforum. Don't pretend that this project isn't just important to Korath because he's the creator.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 14 Feb 2017, 04:45

Friendsofsandwiches wrote:Oi...
Sorry, I didn't realize that you had posted an updated version.
Yeah, I think gemcutter's guild was the last update, I think it was up to Eldtrich moon, but I'm not sure how much they were actually able to code in.
If you want, repost the links.
Check your PM
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby Friendsofsandwiches » 14 Feb 2017, 11:09

My apologies if asking for a newer version is a problem.
I entirely did not want to come here causing more issues between people.
But that said, is there now just personal reasons why the updates aren't available, or are there potential legal reasons?
Also if Korath is working on newer cards now, I'm assuming for shandalar, will all previous unavailable updates be available, or just from that point forward?
Or is this for other magic games like forge, that everyone is working on?
Last edited by Friendsofsandwiches on 18 Feb 2017, 03:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby stassy » 16 Feb 2017, 10:15

Due to possible legal reasons, his work is no longer available to public for now, that doesn't mean he no longer work on it.

Edit:
And also to avoid another jatill drama-like, I will add that this is unfortunately the internet, so anything that was posted in public can be recovered, through google cache or wayback machine, so inevitably someone who saved Korath previous work will make it available somewhere else.

So my stance on it is as a mod of the Manalink is the same as with jatill's : I won't allow to post his work on the public forums where I have moderation control, but this is as far as my rights as mod allow, which does not cover private exchange nor outside those very forums.

Heck, he even released the source code, so you might even be free to take on it and update/recompile it (and be wary of another guy to report you for "pirating mtg").

And as far as I know, I don't know if he will release new updates privately or keep it for himself in the future.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby BAgate » 17 Feb 2017, 06:57

Last thing I will say on this topic:

1) From a legal perspective this project is in a grey area, but Korath does have legal copyright to the code he wrote. The fact that he released it does not change this (or else a book's copyright would be invalidated the minute it was published). So recompiling the code or sharing what he produced without his permission (which he can, and has, revoked) is a violation of copyright. Korath could not extract payment for use of Shandalar (mod) because it is a mod building off the work of others, but he could legally enjoin the use of the modded version if he so chose. So, no, you are not free to recompile it without explicit permission, and if someone reported you for pirating mtg they would be completely correct.

2) From a moral perspective, one should respect the wishes of a creator/author. Ignoring those wishes because you like what he produced, or think that everything on the internet is public domain, is disrespectful. Especially when doing so puts said author at risk.

3) To stassy, as mods there is only so much we can do (or should do). But advocating, or recommending, that people utilize avenues we don't/won't control is inappropriate. Just because one does not have actual authority in other spheres does not mean moral authority should not be exercised.

And lastly, the main thing this whole episode has shown me is that this community has gone downhill. A selfish and childish individual drove the lead developer to step away and pull his work. And the response has been, in my opinion, selfish and childish. I have better things to do with my time than deal with children, so I'll be stepping away.

I wish the project luck, and want to thank all the wonderful people who kept this great game alive. Hopefully one day I can come back and find things better than when I left.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby Friendsofsandwiches » 18 Feb 2017, 03:28

siiiighhh...

I understand where you guys are coming from, but...
It feels a little...odd that the only new work is going to be shared only among the core dev's here.

If nothing else, can a few dimestore lawyers out here offer some legal advise on what the people here can do to CYA, Or will this always be at risk if wizards/hasbro decides to spend 5 minutes writing and sending a C&D order?
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby Aswan jaguar » 18 Feb 2017, 08:23

I know that we desperate need good natured people with principles in our forums to remain here and try to keep things civil among other things and not be driven away of bad attitude of others - which unfortunately will increase if we see where the world is going to.I am really disappointed that this episode besides affecting Korath has driven a good person and valuable member of our community to quit. :( I really,really hope BAgate when you calm down you reconsider my friend, we desperately need people with your qualities.I wish you wholeheartedly the best whatever you decide to do.

@BAgate I wrote to you few more things in person check pm.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 19 Feb 2017, 22:06

Friendsofsandwiches wrote:siiiighhh...

I understand where you guys are coming from, but...
It feels a little...odd that the only new work is going to be shared only among the core dev's here.

If nothing else, can a few dimestore lawyers out here offer some legal advise on what the people here can do to CYA, Or will this always be at risk if wizards/hasbro decides to spend 5 minutes writing and sending a C&D order?
There's literally a zero percent chance Wizards bothers to do anything about Shandalar or Manalink.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby TheKillerNacho » 19 Feb 2017, 22:07

BAgate wrote:Last thing I will say on this topic:

1) From a legal perspective this project is in a grey area, but Korath does have legal copyright to the code he wrote. The fact that he released it does not change this (or else a book's copyright would be invalidated the minute it was published). So recompiling the code or sharing what he produced without his permission (which he can, and has, revoked) is a violation of copyright. Korath could not extract payment for use of Shandalar (mod) because it is a mod building off the work of others, but he could legally enjoin the use of the modded version if he so chose. So, no, you are not free to recompile it without explicit permission, and if someone reported you for pirating mtg they would be completely correct.

2) From a moral perspective, one should respect the wishes of a creator/author. Ignoring those wishes because you like what he produced, or think that everything on the internet is public domain, is disrespectful. Especially when doing so puts said author at risk.

3) To stassy, as mods there is only so much we can do (or should do). But advocating, or recommending, that people utilize avenues we don't/won't control is inappropriate. Just because one does not have actual authority in other spheres does not mean moral authority should not be exercised.

And lastly, the main thing this whole episode has shown me is that this community has gone downhill. A selfish and childish individual drove the lead developer to step away and pull his work. And the response has been, in my opinion, selfish and childish. I have better things to do with my time than deal with children, so I'll be stepping away.

I wish the project luck, and want to thank all the wonderful people who kept this great game alive. Hopefully one day I can come back and find things better than when I left.
Cya.

Authoritarian doesn't equate to moral, btw. No need to over-step your authority because your moral compass differs from someone else's.

Also you really don't know anything about copyright laws. In order to be protected by copyright you actually need to apply for one. Something that he couldn't have gotten since Magic the Gathering is already copyrighted. Now one could report someone for pirating MTG in general... but that applies to literally every aspect of this forum.
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Re: [Helpful for new users] Full Package Installs!

Postby dingbat1 » 20 Feb 2017, 02:14

Friendsofsandwiches wrote:If nothing else, can a few dimestore lawyers out here offer some legal advise on what the people here can do to CYA, Or will this always be at risk if wizards/hasbro decides to spend 5 minutes writing and sending a C&D order?
<--- actual lawyer.

There's no CYA, in the highly unlikely event that Hasbro spends the 5 minutes to write and send a cease&desist, there's no defense, and the appropriate action would be to shut down Manalink, Shandalar, Forge, and significant other parts of the website.

Plain and simple, we make a gazillion references to copyrighted information, as well as to patents, in just about every other post. While a ton of those posts are certainly within the realm of fair use, the amount of work required to separate fair use from infringement would be untenable.


BAgate wrote:Last thing I will say on this topic:

1) From a legal perspective this project is in a grey area, but Korath does have legal copyright to the code he wrote.
Actually, from a legal perspective this project isn't in a grey area. It's just a lot better if we pretend it is.

TheKillerNacho wrote:Also you really don't know anything about copyright laws. In order to be protected by copyright you actually need to apply for one.
You're wrong. For a work to be protected by copyright, it merely needs to be recorded. One needs to apply for trademark or patent, but copyright protection is automatic.

To go one level further, hypothetically, if you were to distribute a copy of korath's work, korath could bring suit to enjoin you from continuing to do so. The only outcome would be an injunction, because korath would not be able to prove any damages. Hasbro could likewise bring suit against korath to prevent korath from distributing his work, because it makes too much use of their copyrights and patents (MTG mechanics & card details). They could sue for damages if they can prove loss of sales (good luck with that).


This leaves unresolved the question as to who owns the rights to the microprose software. from 1998 to 2001, Hasbro owned all microprose intellectual property. Hasbro bought Wizards of the Coast in 1999. When Hasbro sold the MiscroProse intellectual property to Infogrames in 2001, it's possible that they retained the Shandalar IP. If not, it gets really murky what happened thereafter. The MicroProse brand is owned by a company that makes air rifles, but whether they also obtained the MicroProse IP is a different matter.
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