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What's on your exclude list?

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What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 02 Nov 2016, 18:29

I don't suppose most folks use the exclude list when they play shandalar, but I do. Bunch of reasons:

My reasons | Open
1) I make decks in forge and it doesn't remember my custom filters, so I have to separate out things I know I'm not going to use for the AI into two expansions apart from the one I'm using ("Stuff that the AI's not capable of handling", and "Stuff that's too alien/harsh to confront the player with"). This is just to save time, so I don't have to sift through it every single time, and also to not use stuff I know doesn't work. So I happen to have a list of questionable stuff to just copy bits from.

2) I don't much like using the mechanically unfair/harsh/alien stuff vs. the AI myself. Also, if I take certain things out of the shop pool I'm much less stressed while making AI decks. Simple example are the various Circle of Protection: White variants.

3) The pool (and even the original pool) is loaded with color hosing. This is actually quite bad for a setting with so many mono-colored decks. I'm rather comfortable taking out every single thing that grants stable protection from color or has non-one-shot protection from color, as it tends to not only hose most decks of that color but also tends to stump the AI when it's facing it. It's hexproof, unblockable and indestructible (sorta) lumped all into one and usually just tacked onto somethig with no cost adjustment. I do love some of the cards and some of them are really iconic, but it just raises too many issues. Most of landwalk is mostly the same, as is quite a bunch of other color hosing.

I generally don't use those in AI decks, and would feel stupid if I was using it in play as those cards are usually inherently unfair, so I'm ok with taking most of it out.

4) Some stuff is just completely alien in an invasive way if you take it out of it's home environment. Horsemanship, Tempest-block Shadow and Infect/Poison are examples of that. I don't feel like subjecting the AI to any of that. The first two are supposed to be conditional evasion, but there's simply no way for them to not be absolute evasion most of the time. The third changes the rule about how many lives you have in a game of MtG, which is both silly and redundant/chlashing with Shandalar's own silly rules about how many lives you have in a game of MtG. Funnily enough Phyrexian Unlife is in, and I think i'll leave it in and even use it in some white deck.

5) Things I just know I won't use in play, like Slivers. They're not invasive, but they+re insular and just don't appeal to me. I'd use them in an AI deck that could use them, and I'd stick the random sliver into a developing deck, but I wouldn't shop for them.

6) The damned pool is huge and unwieldly so shaving off random "junk" isn't a bad idea. I don't have too many things in this category right now because I'm really hesitant to dismiss cards as bad (or attempt to clar the pool of non insanely top-of-the-curve-efficient cards), but Crazed Goblin is a joke card and I really don't need it, and the original lucky charms (+ Soul Net + Urza's Chalice) have aged rather badly.


What do you keep out of your Shandalar pool? Do you get tired of the clutter and just take things out?

--- EXCLUSION PACKAGES, LAST UPDATED FOR GEMCUTTERS GUILD 1 ---

Links to subgroups of cards you might want to add to your shandalar.ini exclude list, along with explanations.

Bushido and Flanking
Last edited by lujo on 16 Dec 2016, 09:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby TheKillerNacho » 03 Nov 2016, 12:09

The only thing I think I've taken off is the original dual-lands (I put them in dungeons instead, removing a few of the more combo-centric cards I probably won't use in a standard Shandalar game).

Personally this has greatly improved Shandalar for me.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 03 Nov 2016, 16:27

I'm absolutely with you on that one, hasn't occured to me. Also reminded me to move the damned Flametongoue Kavu into dungeon treasures :D

I've just started work on comprehensive lists of stuff people can add. I do feel the responsibility to personally test every card I put on those lists for explicit bugs (I nailed 2 so far, it's slow and methodical going). Absolutely share your ideas.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 07 Nov 2016, 13:29

Right, so, I'm deep into sorting things into groups, and before anyone has a stroke or decides I'm a horrible person for putting his favourite ever stuff on a list - this isn't necessarily for the exclude list. The reason I make these is to make nifty custom filters for cards in Forge, so that when I search for something or go sifting through a color for mono-colored decks I don't get Domain cards in it or the multicolored block filler stuff with off-color activations (it's also really handy to be able to turn ON that only-mono-if-you-don't-read-what-it-does stuff when you want to make 2 or 3 color decks).

I also manually test these slowly for whether they have any simple bugs, like with their casting/activation cost, wrong abilities, and such, and occasionally observe what the AI is doing with them, but I've got another thread for reports on that.

Before any shocks, remember - you might want to exclude only SOME of this stuff, it won't exclude things from enemy decks and you can actually just comment out anything you really want in the pool. Heck, you can save game, exit, comment out whatever you feel like, save the .ini and load game, go to the shop and pick whatever you want up.

I've got to the end of testing one particular category, though, which is likely to be on my exclude list for a while for several reasons. It's the "protection from color" category, and I'm not actually including all the cards associated with it even in the potential exclude list.

Which cards am I not including in the list? | Open
1) Instants which give protection until end of turn, because those are white counterspells/combat tricks which should be there for the player (and would be there for the AI if it was any good with them).

2) Creatures which sacrifice to give protection from color to something (because they're seals of protection, one-shot and handy to have)

3) Protection from instants/sorceries/enchantments which just isn't as opressive and doesn't seem to give the AI a headache when it's played against it. It's more-or-less just a shroud variant. Protection from lands, because lol (I know what it's for, it's just really funny when you take it out of context, and for this reason I outght to move it come to think of it)

4) Cards with EtB protection granting (These are a bit sketchy but they don't really grant permanent protection, especially not during the opponents turn, and they generally work with creature types)

5) Protection from multicolored, because it's really, really narrow. You could make any number of Shandalar deck packs without a single multicolored card in AI hands, while players seem to be obsessed with them, and for this reason I'd consider having these around.


What's on the list? | Open
Well, here's the list in the form of a Forge subset which I can turn on and off, and I'll turn it into a proper shandalar.ini plug when I do some more testing and decide whether I allowed too many exceptions. Also when I tidy up the ordering, nomenclature and categorisation, I ought to be beaten with a stick for the state of this list:

;Protection
;
; Equipment
;
C Sword of Fire and Ice
C Sword of Light and Shadow
C Sword of Body and Mind
C Sword of Feast and Famine
C Sword of War and Peace
;
; Wards
;
C Black Ward
C Blue Ward
C Green Ward
C Red Ward
C White Ward
C Artifact Ward
C Shield of Duty and Reason
C Mask of Law and Grace
C Flickering Ward
C Pledge of Loyalty
C Cho-Manno's Blessing
C Floating Shield
C Pentarch Ward
C Strength of Isolation
C Strength of Lunacy
;
; Notable Card/Mechanic
;
C True-Name Nemesis
C Master of Waves
C Mother of Runes
C Sygg, River Guide
C Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
C Auriok Champion
C Soltari Monk
C Soltari Priest
C Mystic Enforcer
C Goblin Piledriver
C Knight of Glory
C Knight of Infamy
C Nightwind Glider
C Thermal Glider
C Cemetery Gate
C Vulshok Refugee
C Scryb Ranger
C Spectral Lynx
C Stormbreath Dragon
C Oversoul of Dusk
C Akroma, Angel of Wrath
C Spirit of the Night
C Baneslayer Angel
;
; Mass/Repeatable
;
C Samite Elder
C Stormscape Master
C Thornscape Master
C Crimson Acolyte
C Obsidian Acolyte
C Absolute Law
C Absolute Grace
C Earnest Fellowship
C Righteous War
C Ward Sliver
;
; Bears
;
C Nacatl Outlander
C Zombie Outlander
C Valeron Outlander
C Goblin Outlander
C Vedalken Outlander
C Yavimaya Barbarian
C Llanowar Knight
C Shivan Zombie
C Vodalian Zombie
C Galina's Knight
;
; Angel
;
C Voice of All
C Voice of Duty
C Voice of Grace
C Voice of Law
C Voice of Reason
C Voice of Truth
;
; "Knights"
;
C Hand of Honor
C Hand of Cruelty
C White Knight
C Black Knight
C Blood Knight
C Silver Knight
C Kor Firewalker
C Order of Leitbur
C Order of the Ebon Hand
C Rainbow Knights
C Order of the White Shield
C Knight of Stromgald
C White Shield Crusader
C Stromgald Crusader
C Whirling Dervish
C Dunerider Outlaw
C Defender of Law
C Defender of Chaos
C Tivadar of Thorn
C Knights of Thorn
;
; Hosers with Protection
;
C Woodlot Crawler
C Devout Lightcaster
C Crusading Knight
C Marauding Knight
;
; "Crusaders" (Multi-protection)
;
C Empty-Shrine Kannushi
C Knight of Dawn
C Paladin en-Vec
C Mirran Crusader
C Mystic Crusader
C Phyrexian Crusader
C Stillmoon Cavalier
C Animar, Soul of Elements
C Mountain Yeti
C Jareth, Leonine Titan
C Guardian of the Guildpact
;
; Uncounterable + Prot. Blue
;
C Mistcutter Hydra
C Skylasher
C Great Sable Stag
C Scragnoth
;
; Unsorted
;
C Death Speakers
C Mystic Familiar
C Repentant Blacksmith
C Duskrider Falcon
C Freewind Falcon
C Sea Sprite
C Coast Watcher
C Karoo Meerkat
C Weatherseed Faeries
C Wall of Putrid Flesh
C Dross Harvester
C Guma
C Hell-Bent Raider
C Nantuko Blightcutter
C Windreaper Falcon
C Rappelling Scouts
C Resilient Wanderer
C Oraxid
C Hazerider Drake
C Aven Smokeweaver
C Treetop Sentinel
C Narwhal
C Wildfire Emissary
C Willow Priestess
C Melesse Spirit
C Karmic Guide
C Abbey Gargoyles
C Cerulean Wyvern
C Masked Gorgon
C Grotesque Hybrid
C Crypt Angel
C Blood Baron of Vizkopa
C Eviscerator
C Bog Elemental
C Malakir Bloodwitch
C Beasts of Bogardan
C Subterranean Spirit
C Skirk Fire Marshal
C Scalebane's Elite
C Ivory Guardians
C Ihsan's Shade
C Sabertooth Nishoba
C Akroma's Memorial
C Pale Wayfarer
C Minion of Leshrac
C Sphinx of the Steel Wind
C Wall of Light
C Order of the Stars
C Cartel Aristocrat
C Concerted Effort
C Jeweled Spirit
C Ronom Hulk
C Mirror Golem
C Tsabo Tavoc
;
; Creature Type Hoser
;
C Midnight Duelist
C Elite Inquisitor
C Shoreline Raider
C Warren-Scourge Elf
C Nath's Buffoon
C Grave Bramble
C Kitsune Riftwalker
C Ishi-Ishi, Akki Crackshot
C Dragonstalker
C Harbinger of Spring
;
; Protection from Creatures
;
C Beloved Chaplain
C Commander Eesha
C Spirit Mantle
C Holy Mantle
C Unquestioned Authority
C Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
;
; Protection from all colors
;
C Etched Champion
C Favor of the Mighty
C Pristine Angel
C Pristine Skywise
C Iridescent Angel
;
; Prot: Artifacts
;
C Angelic Curator
C Tel-Jilad Chosen
C Nacatl Savage
C Tel-Jilad Archers
C Needlebug
C Tel-Jilad Outrider
C Yavimaya Scion
C Infested Roothold


So what's the point of exlucing "protection"? | Open
Multiple points.

0) There's thousands of cards to sift through both while making decks, and while buying cards. You could exclude thousands and still have thousands to play with.

1) As simple as protection looks, it's a somewhat complex ability. Made up of, well, somewhat dreaded abilities. It's semi-Hexproof + Semi-Unblockable + Semi-Indistructable with the "semi" part not being all that semi if it is being played against a mono-colored deck. It's so strong that you can see the AI "giving up" when faced with protection guys - it looks like it's bugged out and not playing things, but it also looks like if you were in it's place you'd also know you're faced with something you can't deal with and you'd just concede too.

2) Way too many decks in shandalar are mono colored by design, and making them not mono-colored would not necessarily help much. Alpha was rife with protection and brutal color hosing, and it's safe to assume it was because it was meant to "entice" players to have more than one deck and thus buy more cards. Shandalar opponents have their one deck, and if they had another one it would still be heavily in their color and thus still vulnerable to hosing like protection. And they have trouble enough as it is.

3) Trying to keep it under control is not a luxury a deckbuilder can really afford themselves. Having a Yotian Soldier in every deck would help slow the protection weenies down a bit, but then you have a Yotian Soldier in every deck. Having an Aeolipile in every deck is the same thing, except it's very likely the AI would aim it at the player's head. Giving everyone from Witch to Arzakon board sweepers would be fun to try out - but the AI just throws them out to kill single dudes.

4) It's also not helping that protection from color was generally considered a conditional ability, so it was generally tacked onto creatures without inflating the price. Except in Shandalar it's not conditional if you know who you're going to fight (you more-or-less always do), and for many of them you don't have to even sideboard - they're generally fine enough mainboard even against decks that don't fold to protection.

5) It tends to confuse the AI when it's playing against it. It has trouble with it in combat, it has trouble attacking if there's protection on the other side.

6) A bunch of cards with activated protection are currently routinely misplayed. It's more of a reason to not give them to the AI for serious deck efforts.

7) Many of them are actually rather filler and vanilla, and they also tend to come in cycles, often at rarities other than common. Black Ward , Blue Ward , Green Ward , White Ward , Red Ward are all uncommons which are redundant with the strict-improvement Flickering Ward. There are two semi-identical cycles of 2/2 multicolored with protection guys from 2 multicolored blocks. There's a milion 2 mana 2 power white guys with protection + ability, often more-or-less direct reprints of one another.

8 ) When they're madly powerful, they're really madly powerful. Plop down Absolute Law vs. a mono-red AI enemy, or Absolute Grace vs. a mono-black and everything you've got is hexproof/ublockable/undamageable by all that the other guy has got. And they can't get rid of it, by design, since black and red don't deal with enchantments, unless I give every one of them mad overkill of their own like Anarchy. Although how well that would work is a good question due to sideboard malfunctioning.

9) When they're niche, they're niche, like in the case of "protection from creature type" guys. There could be a decent chance that there's never a good enough point to put one of them in a deck, and there's also a chance that if it hoses a creature type which is very likely to be in (say Vampire, Goblin, Elf or Dragon) then it just makes one enemy randomly vulnerable just because the deck is being on topic. Again, this is punishing Shandalar AI decks for being Shandalar AI decks. "Protection from artifacts" is also a really, really niche thing from artifact heavy blocks which mostly translates to "can't wear equipment" but is not priced like a downside. Not necessarily something you'd want in the shop screen.

10) Having said all this - there's cards I loved to play, adore their arts, have fond memories of and even have shandalar decks that use them in my deckpack even though I mostly instinctively stay away from protection as an ability. Liking something is one thing, but being reasonable is another thing, and it's not unreasonable to consider excluding this list. Or at least most of it, there's some really iconic cards in there, and I'm not saying I wouldn't dip into the list if I felt like it even when deckbuilding. But let's not kid ourselves, it's a very silly ability. The list is around 200 cards long.

11) Oh, and the ability is universally "bugged" in one specific way - trample doesn't go over it, it instead absorbs all the damage from the trampler, at the time of writing (HS2). This is reason enough to exclude it until Korath does something about it, because if the deckbuilder put a big green guy with Trample in a deck they didn't put it in so you can be a clown and chump block it with Beloved Chaplain.


Why not exclude them? | Open
Multiple reasons.

0) There's some iconic stuff in there. Mystic Enforcer. Goblin Piledriver. Cards which kinda have protection tacked on because the metagame they were released in (in the later case it was Psychatog). Then there's cards which people just can't get enough of because they're just made to mindlessly win - Sword of Cockles and Bollix. Soltari Monk & Soltari Priest. Kor Firewalker. Voice of All. Commander Eesha + Concerted Effort , so all your guys can be flying and invulnerable. Etched Oracle. Do remember if you want something particular you can just comment it out of the list, and it'll appear in your amulet shop.

2) You want ALL THE CARDS. In which case, yes, I do, too, but not necessarily all the time, and trimming some out of the shop makes it far more usable.

3) The AI might not be good enough to beat the human unless given it's beloved combination of (untargetable-by-the-enemy + unblockable-by-the-enemy + undamageable-by-the-enemy). This is actually a valid point, the AI is indeed that way. But that's only for AI deckbuilding, this doesn't necessarily mean YOU need those to beat the AI.

4) YOU need your (untargetable-by-the-enemy + unblockale-by-the-enemy + undamageable-by-the-enemy) to beat the AI and you don't even want to consider the implications of this. Which is fair enough, but you might want to exclude some other stuff (about 85% of it or more) then as most of MtG cards tend to be somewhat less powerful and simple-minded than that. Also, you might want to still exclude quite a bit of stuff from this list because a lot of it is mutually redundant.

5) You want to check these specifically for bugs (and possibly missplays). This is excellent and commendable. I checked them for bugs myself and found a lot of misplays, and I'd wellcome anyone who'd sit down with them and check for more.

6) __________________ . Insert reason here. I just made the list and checked the cards, because I need it to not have to sort through these when I make decks. I can just lay out the somewhat solid case for not using these in Shandalar :lol:


Next up is either heavy color/land hosers (aka sideboard cards) or landwalk (aka unblockable filler for the most part but highly debatable as to what's excludeable and what isn't).
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby TheKillerNacho » 07 Nov 2016, 16:42

Eh, I don't like the idea of excluding protection completely. Espessially on cool cards in which protection isn't their only thing. Goblin Piledriver for example. I can understand getting rid of color hosers that no one would main in Shandalar really but not a card that has an actual positive use.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 07 Nov 2016, 17:38

We're not getting rid of anything. It's just a list of most of the protection cards, which I will attach to my deck pack. You can put ";" in front of any of them to keep it in your shops. You can even start with all of them excluded, decide you want 4 Goblin Piledriver or whatever, save game, go out, put ";" in front of Goblin Piledriver, go back to your game and pick up 4 from the shops. "Excluding it" won't even take it out of enemy decks if you have them in any. I even made the list in a way which put the choiciest things where folks can see them.

The reason most of the protection cards are there, including the "cool" ones, is that protection is hosing and it doesn't matter what the other words on the card say - it's always hosing. It's rather unfortunate, and I don't like it, but you can't divorce a card from it. So some will not care about or even notice the fact that they're beating up a helpless AI and still play whatever cards they want, some will beat up a helpless AI which can't put up any resistance to them and grumble about me not making decks more resistant to protection (go make your own decks, by all means, and good luck with that), and some will just figure out that no matter how fun the card is in theory - what's winning them the game is the stupid tacked on protection which the AI can't really do anything about.

Ultimately it's 100% about choice, but I just made it possible for people who want to exclude some or even most of protection to do so. Or rather I will when I order and reformat the list. But noone has to exclude a single protection card, it's completely "make your own salad". I would put Goblin Piledriver in if I wanted to play Goblin Piledriver, but otherwise I would find it much more fun if I didn't have to put Vedalken Shackles into every blue AI deck, or whatever the solution might turn out to be. Everyone decides for themself what's fun for them.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby TheKillerNacho » 08 Nov 2016, 15:32

I get what you're saying, but I always saw hosing an inherant part of not just Shandalar but Magic in general. I get getting rid of pure hosing/color hate cards, since they aren't really interesting. But if someone really wants to farm black creatures in Shandalar by making a black-hate deck, I don't think that's a bad thing. Heck, one of Magic's driving principles is that you SHOULD be able to easily win if you know what the opponent is playing and pick your deck accordingly.

Esp with things like protection from blue like Goblin Piledriver, blue wizards can still counter the thing or attempt to win their own win condition before the creature with protection can get a win of their own. There's also artifact creatures and colorless removal... not to mention aside from the smaller creatures, most Shandalar creatures seem to have multi-color decks anyway.

I tend to think Lifelink is a bigger problem with Shandalar right now (you can completely cheese all dungeons with a Wurmcoil Engine, for example. Color hosing is kinda boring but I'm unsure how many players would make a protection deck in the first place to "farm" lower tier monsters. And if they did, they certainly couldn't get mad at you because of the deck they are using... they chose to do this with full knowledge it would counter the deck you created.

The other thing of course is it is REALLY hard to get the cards you want/need in Shandalar espessially in the early game in which you'd be fighting the monocolor creatures. Late in the game the weaker monocolor creatures SHOULD be pretty easy; just natural progression there. I guess what I'm trying to say is the player doesn't really have the resources to cheese the monocolor creatures early and by the time they can in the late game, they really have no reason to.

As I said, I do get wanting to get rid of the blatant color hate. Acid Rain for example isn't really interesting at all, and can't be used to put forward any of your own strategies, and just serves to hate on green. It's not even on your list but probably should be. But getting rid of a card just because it has protection or a color-hate element doesn't seem very fun at all. People don't use Goblin Piledriver because of it being pro-blue. Heck even things like Samite Elder is interesting since its very mechanic isn't color hate at all, its general protection that comes at a cost. Same goes for a lot of other cards that you listed. Interesting cards should not be disabled; cards that no one wants to play (except for the ability to cheese) should though.

Just my 2c.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 08 Nov 2016, 18:31

Half of what you're saying was accounted for up there, I probably have more cards on that list that I personally care about than the average, or even the unusualy specific person. And the other half about what's integral to the game and what isn't is, as you have said yourself, your opinion ("I feel"). The fact that people can have their actions guided by their opinions, is also accounted for: THIS ISN'T MANDATORY OR "OFFICIAL". It's a list, a tool.

When I format it right, you can copy bits of it, you can copy all of it, or you can copy none of it. When there's a landwalk list, you can copy some of it, you can copy none of it, or you can copy all of it. When ther'es a hoser list, you can copy some of it, you can copy none of it, or you can copy all of it. And you can also change what's on it mid-game. I make a list, manually try the cards out for obvious bugs, and give reasons for why someone MIGHT want to exclude something in particular, or why I would recommend it.

There are also metagames where protection from color, in particular, is a less impactful ability - ones with a lot of colorless cards in them, or one where every deck is multicolored. If I ever make a deckpack like that, I'll want to exclude fewer of these cards. If many of them which are bugged or misused become not-bugged or not-misused by the AI, same thing. But with the current state of the engine and the AI, in the default-shandalar environment which has 35 mono-colored decks, I'll be really glad I put in some time to compile a list of these to make them bugger off. I like a lot of them, or have emotional attachment to them, It's pretty safe to say other people will too, which is why I gave that list of reasons. And since people rarely stop and think about how freakishly strong protection actually is, it's worth a read.

I'll just put the links to the lists in the first post when there's a few of them, and then when someone wants to declutter the pool, they can just grab what they want from the category they want.

EDIT: And just in case it's not clear, I have a personal attachment to Samite Elder which brings back personal memories whenever I see the card. It was played in tourneys in deck by a friend - he would use Buried Alive to put Reya Dawnbringer , Atogatog and Samite Healer in the grave, then reanimate Reya via Zombify, which would then bring out Atogatog and Samite Elder, meaning all his doods had protection from everything there is. The rest of the deck was just fine old discard, kills and counters and Zombie Infestation, so basically Psychatog but with a win condition which didn't need a million mana and which noone saw coming. Invasion-Oddysey-7th Standard was a hell of format. But! His brother, also a friend of mine, carried me across a city in his arms one day when I almost died and might have if it wasn't for him. I was testing Samite Elder for bugs while making the list I remembered that just like I always do when I see the card. And it's still on the list. Nothing at all is making anyone exclude it if they don't want to, and if I want to specifically recontruct my friends reanimator I'll just put a ; before Samite Elder and have no problems at all. So can anyone else. Or they can just not even copy it when they pick up bits of the list they want and put it in their .ini.

--

OT reply | Open
EDIT: As to some other things - yes, lifelink and any kind of lifegain is a big problem in dungeons, and dungeons which have anything but Seal of Removal as their starting advantage are silly because you only need one dude in the deck (Ulamog's Crusher, for example, is a common) and you'll always start with that dude in every duel and just cheeze everything.

This makes it very easy to get dungeon treasures. It can be helped somewhat by actually making Seal of Removal the default thing in every single dungeon regardless of color, lol.

EDIT: The truly funny thing is that everyone can agree with "cheezing dice" is too easy and ridiculous, but if you suggest that starting with any creature at all is a ridiculous people will get all upset. And it is. People who go out of their way to put, idk, only Blightsteel Colossus in the deck to just murder every dungeon are being very silly (there's a lot of them, btw). It's like not realizing that you're allready bringing a gun to a knife fight and going for a bazooka instead. Which is why the Seal of Removal everywhere idea is actually less retarded than it sounds - I don't have to try to abuse dice in order to abuse dice, the only way they'd be fine was if they couldn't give you stuff other than life (or possibly pre-set silly enchantments, or possibly even pre-set silly enchantments for both you and the opponent).

As for it being hard to get cards you want - this very much depends on how you approach playing the game. If you do nothing but quests, you pretty much only get exactly what you want. And since the buying screen is completely unnavigateable and flooded with cards I don't have much choice but to plan what I want ahead of time, which means that picking up a playset of something common or uncommon to farm enemies easily is very easy. And number-of-colors doesn't denote the enemy "toughness", so you can farm anything. This isn't up for debate, and is off topic, so no need to reply.
Last edited by lujo on 09 Nov 2016, 06:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby TheKillerNacho » 08 Nov 2016, 23:54

I get what you're saying; I'm just saying why I personally will not exclude all protection.

As for cheesing a dungeon by carrying only one creature... I haven't ever even considered that. Then again, I always play Shandalar enforcing a minimum card count for myself so if I don't get enough dice that wouldn't even be practical to me. xD
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Bushido and Flanking

Postby lujo » 16 Dec 2016, 09:09

The AI can't play against bushido and flaking. This is a known thing as their implementation was a placeholdery thing without proper combat AI. This prevents the AI from realizing what will happen if it blocks a bushido guy, or even what will happen if it's own flanker is blocked. So if you attack with, say Ronin Houndmster the AI will block it with a 2/2 every time and lose it's 2/2, which makes the ability effectively a cheatcode.

Unless you really want to beat up on a helpless AI, I'd personally advise giving these guys an auto-exclude until they're implemented properly. Or if you want to beat up the AI, knock yourself out, it can't play against these.

Bushido | Open
Araba Mothrider
Battle-Mad Ronin
Brothers Yamazaki
Cursed Ronin
Devoted Retainer
Hand of Cruelty
Hand of Honor
Iizuka the Ruthless
Indebted Samurai
Inner-Chamber Guard
Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Kitsune Blademaster
Kitsune Dawnblade
Konda's Hatamoto
Konda, Lord of Eiganjo
Kuro's Taken
Mothrider Samurai
Nagao, Bound by Honor
Nezumi Ronin
Numai Outcast
Ronin Cavekeeper
Ronin Cliffrider
Ronin Houndmaster
Samurai Enforcers
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Silverstorm Samurai
Sokenzan Renegade
Takeno's Cavalry
Takeno, Samurai General


Flanking | Open
Benalish Cavalry
Blazing Blade Askari
Bogardan Lancer
Burning Shield Askari
Cadaverous Knight
Cavalry Master
Fallen Askari
Femeref Knight
Jabari's Banner
Jolrael's Centaur
Knight of the Mists
Knight of Valor
Mtenda Herder
Pentarch Paladin
Shadow Rider
Sidar Jabari
Sidewinder Sliver
Skulking Knight
Suq'Ata Lancer
Telim'Tor
Zhalfirin Commander
Zhalfirin Knight
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby stassy » 16 Dec 2016, 14:29

What about AI bushido/flanking decks? Does it "knows" that there is a pseudo pump on attacking with them?
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 16 Dec 2016, 14:51

stassy wrote:What about AI bushido/flanking decks? Does it "knows" that there is a pseudo pump on attacking with them?
Not really, as far as I know. There's a few bushido and flanking card in the enemy decks in my deckpack, which I put there to see how it pans out. From what I've seen it won't attack into 1/1 creatures with a flanker (nothing could block and survive), and it doesn't really seem to recognize the pump on bushido, either.

As far as I know it's not "messing up" bushido and flanking, but it literally doesn't know they're there, like it used to be with deathtouch until this version. It can only possibly play them right by accident, but the way other decision making is layed out it's difficult for the AI to even make a fortunate accident. Battle-Mad Ronin in my Sorcerer deck works because it must attack (so the AI has no choice and it can't screw up), and Ronin Houndmaster works because it has haste so it gets the damage in (or so it seems), but trying out white bushido guys for the Paladin had me take them out.

Something is different with exalted, which was added at the same time and Korath did say it's a provisory implementation too. If you pay attention, you can see the AI mess up while using exalted in situations where attacking with just 1 guy would yield more damage but it attacks with multiple guys who can't be blocked for less damage, but it seems to handle it better overall. Or it just lends itself better to how the AI generally plays (meaning it's likely to only ever attack with evasive guys, and those are rarer than non-evasive guys in dedicated exalted decks etc etc. When it has multiple evasive guys and exalted it'll "screw up").
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby Korath » 16 Dec 2016, 20:55

stassy wrote:What about AI bushido/flanking decks? Does it "knows" that there is a pseudo pump on attacking with them?
It does with bushido, both your creatures and its own. Easy enough to run your own tests and compare what it does with, say, Devoted Retainer to what it does with Glory Seeker.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 16 Dec 2016, 22:33

Korath wrote:
stassy wrote:What about AI bushido/flanking decks? Does it "knows" that there is a pseudo pump on attacking with them?
It does with bushido, both your creatures and its own. Easy enough to run your own tests and compare what it does with, say, Devoted Retainer to what it does with Glory Seeker.
What do you mean "both your creatures and it's own"? It doesn't understand that if it blocks an enemy 2/2 bushido 1 guy with a 2/2 regular guy that only his guy will die. Vs Ronin Houndmaster it played as if the Houndmaster had "Must be blocked. Can only be blocked by 1 creature. Can't be blocked by creatures with more than 2 power." for many turns in a row.
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Re: What's on your exclude list?

Postby lujo » 17 Dec 2016, 17:36

I mean, here's a short loss-for-words demonstration. Also this one. (Sorry, about the rambling on the second one. But really how do you make those things go away and/or are they really bundled with the installation?)

If it's inacessible because I set the video as private, what can I do about that? I didn't want to openly share videos for many reasons.

EDIT: Made them more public than they were, folks said they coldn't see them. Ought to work now.
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