Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by Fourth Inversion » 20 Jun 2015, 02:57
ThanksBog Wraith wrote:First off, welcome aboard!
From first glance, this looks like a very balanced deck that fits very well for use with the Cleric. I'm going to give this deck a try over the weekend.
Well done & keep them coming as it looks like you might be pretty good at this!
. It'd be easier to make the suggested Cleric's deck stronger or more focused, by only sticking to one flavour, but I think it's strong enough to potentially win a few games against a starting player's deck. I'm a bit worried that the AI seems to blow up the sacrifice yourself -> gain life creatures at the earliest opportunity possible, so they could be replaced with other clerics.Here's another attempt along the same lines, this time at a Druid deck, using a few of the 'weaker' large green creatures that won't appear in stronger decks. With the new cards, Golden Hind can replace Llanowar Elves as a more flavourful source of mana acceleration.
- | Open
Edit: One more, this time for the Beast Master, since I don't think he has a deck yet. From testing, the AI seems to handle mana acceleration and token creation well, and knows how to use Overrun, so this deck should be quite dangerous to face.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by jiansonz » 20 Jun 2015, 19:55
@Fourth Inversion: I also like those decks, especially the Cleric one. Well done.
I haven't seen more creatures in a deck since the Relentless Rats deck in the Manalink challenges!
While I was away for a few days, I came up with an idea for the Beast Master deck as well. Wolves, beasts and some human/elf 'masters'. Splashing a little white, as I suggested earlier. It's probably less competitive than Fourth Inversion's and a little goofier, but I like it:
0170.dck
(Note: Leatherback Baloth does not work in my version of Manalink (when cast, it goes straight to the graveyard), but it works in Shandalar.)
EDIT: I also made a placeholder Sedge Beast deck. It's a remake of an old favourite of mine. Now that Korath has added Damnation, all the needed cards are available.
A little wipe, a little burn, a few tricks and some critters. Will be interesting to see how the AI handles
- Death Pit Offering (the timing of when to cast it)
- The Priest of Yawgmoth/Su-Chi/burn combo
0219.dck
EDIT (2015-08-11): I experieced crashes nearly every time I was about to duel a Beast Master in the new Thieves Hideout version of Shandalar. I think I found the problem: Temple Garden isn't in the game. Replaced now.
I haven't seen more creatures in a deck since the Relentless Rats deck in the Manalink challenges!
While I was away for a few days, I came up with an idea for the Beast Master deck as well. Wolves, beasts and some human/elf 'masters'. Splashing a little white, as I suggested earlier. It's probably less competitive than Fourth Inversion's and a little goofier, but I like it:
0170.dck
- | Open
(Note: Leatherback Baloth does not work in my version of Manalink (when cast, it goes straight to the graveyard), but it works in Shandalar.)
EDIT: I also made a placeholder Sedge Beast deck. It's a remake of an old favourite of mine. Now that Korath has added Damnation, all the needed cards are available.
A little wipe, a little burn, a few tricks and some critters. Will be interesting to see how the AI handles
- Death Pit Offering (the timing of when to cast it)
- The Priest of Yawgmoth/Su-Chi/burn combo
0219.dck
- | Open
EDIT (2015-08-11): I experieced crashes nearly every time I was about to duel a Beast Master in the new Thieves Hideout version of Shandalar. I think I found the problem: Temple Garden isn't in the game. Replaced now.
Last edited by jiansonz on 11 Aug 2015, 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by quatrocentos-e-vinte » 20 Jun 2015, 23:22
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by Fourth Inversion » 22 Jun 2015, 09:15
@jiansonz Really like the destructive flavour of the Sedge Beast deck.
@quatrocentos-e-vinte The Dragonlord deck would go perfectly with a starting advantage of Dragonspeaker Shaman. If some more of the gold dragons get implemented, then the deck could possibly go multicoloured, as instead of splashing for Craw Wurm and Elder Land Wurm in the original, splashing for a card like Dragonlord Atarka seems like a much more worthwhile investment of mana.
Here's an annoying deck for the Priestess. Most of my losses against the Priestess in the original Shandalar came from being stalled out, particularly when Castle and Wall of Swords were up, so I decided to build a defensive deck along these lines. Wave of Reckoning is a fun rare for the deck, although as the AI seems to cast it ASAP, I chose only creatures with Toughness > Power. Incidentally, the AI doesn't seem to activate Millstone at all in Manalink's Duels, but is able to do so properly in Shandalar, which is what matters.
@quatrocentos-e-vinte The Dragonlord deck would go perfectly with a starting advantage of Dragonspeaker Shaman. If some more of the gold dragons get implemented, then the deck could possibly go multicoloured, as instead of splashing for Craw Wurm and Elder Land Wurm in the original, splashing for a card like Dragonlord Atarka seems like a much more worthwhile investment of mana.
Here's an annoying deck for the Priestess. Most of my losses against the Priestess in the original Shandalar came from being stalled out, particularly when Castle and Wall of Swords were up, so I decided to build a defensive deck along these lines. Wave of Reckoning is a fun rare for the deck, although as the AI seems to cast it ASAP, I chose only creatures with Toughness > Power. Incidentally, the AI doesn't seem to activate Millstone at all in Manalink's Duels, but is able to do so properly in Shandalar, which is what matters.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by jiansonz » 22 Jun 2015, 17:43
Great take on the Priestess deck. It keeps her focus on defense but is very different. Although I can't say she's beaten me by decking me more often than she's beaten me with an animated wall with Blessing (or Blessing on some of her few non-wall creatures).
For Manalink play, I suggest replacing the Millstones with Blessing or Swords to Plowshares.
@quatrocentos-e-vinte: Now that's a deck worthy of a Dragon Lord! (or is that Dragon Lady?)
For Manalink play, I suggest replacing the Millstones with Blessing or Swords to Plowshares.
@quatrocentos-e-vinte: Now that's a deck worthy of a Dragon Lord! (or is that Dragon Lady?)
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by jiansonz » 25 Jun 2015, 20:35
Remade Thought Invoker deck:
0232.dck
Not sure if it's good enough for the blue henchwoman (haven't seen the AI use it yet) but it seems to be working pretty well when I play it. I find the deck enjoyable to play with and it can win in more than one way.
(Btw, I thought Korath had added Temporal Adept to the game but it does not show up in the deck builder, so I'm probably mistaken. If it is added, it will replace Time Elemental as it does not have the 'fight only once and at a huge cost' drawback, it's cheaper to activate and its ability is also more powerful.)
EDIT: Best Gauntlet run I've had in the new nastier enviroment: 24 wins!
Then I lost to Arch Angel.
EDIT 2 (2015-08-09): replaced Time Elemental with Temporal Adept.
0232.dck
- | Open
Not sure if it's good enough for the blue henchwoman (haven't seen the AI use it yet) but it seems to be working pretty well when I play it. I find the deck enjoyable to play with and it can win in more than one way.
(Btw, I thought Korath had added Temporal Adept to the game but it does not show up in the deck builder, so I'm probably mistaken. If it is added, it will replace Time Elemental as it does not have the 'fight only once and at a huge cost' drawback, it's cheaper to activate and its ability is also more powerful.)
EDIT: Best Gauntlet run I've had in the new nastier enviroment: 24 wins!
Then I lost to Arch Angel.
EDIT 2 (2015-08-09): replaced Time Elemental with Temporal Adept.
Last edited by jiansonz on 09 Aug 2015, 17:50, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by guinsoo » 26 Jun 2015, 09:38
There are a lot of ways that Shandalar difficulty progression could be 'balanced' - if the goal is to mimic the original game's progression path then sure, let's unify. But I think the game is WAY different now. For one thing, there are far more powerful commons and uncommons than previously. There are simply way better cards, more of them, and it's easier to get them. For that reason, I think the ramping should be different in 'new Shandalar' - enemies should start off a little harder, and ramp up less. But I think it's unclear at this point and will take a lot of testing to get a solid opinion.Bog Wraith wrote:quatrocentos-e-vinte, your Excel file is an ESSENTIAL part of doing what is necessarily a first step in redoing all the creature decks in Shandalar. I agree that there should be guidelines in going about this and I think we all should study the info you put together here and then come to a consensus of what to do and then make sure that all future decks stick to the agreed upon conditions.
This is a great start and I hope that everyone who is interested in the development of new decks for the game takes the time to read your list carefully and submit any additions, changes or suggestions for things that they might think needs to be addressed here.
Thanks for launching this most important topic and for doing the work in getting this organized in an easy to access & understand presentation!
Either way, I suspect that nobody will be able to agree on what the ideal progression path is, and so I think there is a lot of value in different people creating different 'level' versions of enemy decks, following different guidelines.
If nothing else, you should focus your post toward people who are interested in getting their decks included with the official unofficial release. Everyone else should give their AIs decks that they enjoy playing against, not what conforms to a forum community's spreadsheet.
In the end, I think everyone should make whatever decks they want for the AIs, and then once we have a big pool and have tried out different versions we will have a much better idea of what's fun to play against at the different stages of the game. The more decks people have available to drop in and try out, the more chance we can find decks that really click.
I do think there's a use for guidelines especially as they evolve over time with people building decks and trying them out, and knowing what rules or guidelines one is breaking can be informative. However I think a spreadsheet is not a good place for this data. Let's get these guidelines in an easy to read forum post IMO.
Last edited by guinsoo on 26 Jun 2015, 11:17, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by Bog Wraith » 26 Jun 2015, 10:55
The comment was based on people giving their input in what they & others thought would be a good way to begin the process, not to a final end.guinsoo wrote:There are a lot of ways that Shandalar difficulty progression could be 'balanced' - if the goal is to mimic the original game's progression path then sure, let's unify. But I think the game is WAY different now. For one thing, there are far more powerful commons and uncommons than previously. There are simply way better cards, more of them, and it's easier to get them. For that reason, I think the ramping should be different in 'new Shandalar' - enemies should start off a little harder, and ramp up less. But I think it's unclear at this point and will take a lot of testing to get a solid opinion.Bog Wraith wrote:quatrocentos-e-vinte, your Excel file is an ESSENTIAL part of doing what is necessarily a first step in redoing all the creature decks in Shandalar. I agree that there should be guidelines in going about this and I think we all should study the info you put together here and then come to a consensus of what to do and then make sure that all future decks stick to the agreed upon conditions.
This is a great start and I hope that everyone who is interested in the development of new decks for the game takes the time to read your list carefully and submit any additions, changes or suggestions for things that they might think needs to be addressed here.
Thanks for launching this most important topic and for doing the work in getting this organized in an easy to access & understand presentation!
Either way, I suspect that nobody will be able to agree on what the ideal progression path is, and so I think there is a lot of value in different people creating different 'level' versions of enemy decks, following different guidelines.
If nothing else, you should focus your post toward people who are interested in getting their decks included with the official unofficial release. Everyone else should give their AIs decks that they enjoy playing against, not what conforms to a forum community's spreadsheet.
In the end, I think everyone should make whatever decks they want for the AIs, and then once we have a big pool and have tried out different versions we will have a much better idea of what's fun to play against at the different stages of the game.
I also think a spreadsheet is not a good place for this data. Let's get these guidelines in an easy to read forum post hidden by some spoiler tags IMO.
There is no intention of making all the decks the same from a vote or a majority opinion. The point was that we had something of raw data to look at and compare to what we had previous, and suggest strategies and card combinations that might go well with the specific creature deck's theme. Nothing more and nothing less.
Of course anyone & everyone is free to choose what they want to design & submit. There is no pool of decks that is the final goal here. In fact I suspect that the decks will be in constant flux because as you correctly pointed out, there are many new cards that change the entire dynamic of Shandalar, and there will be many more in the future that will in effect render any decks made now subject to many changes as these new cards are introduced.
This here however is a forum with multiple members who frankly, have been here a long time and enjoy working together, especially by having a back & forth dialog on what they think might and might not work.
Since this project was the culmination of many peoples wishes for many years, a starting point that quatrocentos-e-vinte provided was the logical place to begin with.
Nothing is written in stone and no decisions have been made. As a moderator here, it is also up to me to make sure that everyone's voice is heard and the best way to do that is to encourage folks to get involved and that starts with a dialog in regards to whatever subject matter is touched upon.
If my words gave the impression that a consensus was the way we would need to come to for the decks to be made, than that is my error and not my intention.
As I stated above it was meant as a guideline to try and keep the theme of the creature decks in the same way they are known for, for instance having the Cleric deck contain & take advantage of those type of cards that optimize his theme taken from the plethora of new cards added so far. The same goes for any of the creatures in the game, to stick to the theme but in a way that encourages as many different combinations of the cards that denote the theme for that particular creature. That is what I mean by coming to a consensus. Again, if I worded it in such a way to cause this to be misinterpreted, that is my fault.
I hope a ton of decks are submitted, all with many different card combinations. That will only make the game better for everyone , and based on what I've seen bandied about so far, it seems to be exactly on course to do so.
In the end, everyone will be free to battle whichever series of decks they desire. I know that based on my history, I will be swapping decks in & out, just to try something new. The best part is we will now have so many cards to chose from that deck building in Shandalar will be incredibly fun & challenging, not only to play against but in designing the decks as well!
As for the spreadsheet use, that is to facilitate offline access for this info as not everyone is or wants to be connected online at all times. As for adding a post in the forum, I will leave that up to quatrocentos-e-vinte since it is his data being posted.
I hope you will add your deck design ideas into the pool of decks. The more people we have doing so the more great decks there will be to test.
Thanks for bringing this up & pointing out your concerns. Obviously it was important to clarify my intent and your post will help to ensure that it is done so.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by stassy » 26 Jun 2015, 11:26
Here is Orion79 take on Nether Fiend with available cards adjustment :
0151.dck
The original deck is supposed to be a Lord of the Pit deck which feed from token and returnable creature. Orion79 added his own flavor with more Demons in order to fit the theme and I added some removals in order to keep it alive (and left some crap in because it's supposed to be a medium level enemy).
The AI rarely get the good combo setting off (token then demon to feed) but with Dark Ritual to pull of some big demons it's menacing enough.
About the guideline, if think that the idea is to make enough decks with the same rules in order to make a themed deck mod pack that causual players can choose instead of a big mess that is the Manalink 3.0 one
0151.dck
- | Open
The original deck is supposed to be a Lord of the Pit deck which feed from token and returnable creature. Orion79 added his own flavor with more Demons in order to fit the theme and I added some removals in order to keep it alive (and left some crap in because it's supposed to be a medium level enemy).
The AI rarely get the good combo setting off (token then demon to feed) but with Dark Ritual to pull of some big demons it's menacing enough.
About the guideline, if think that the idea is to make enough decks with the same rules in order to make a themed deck mod pack that causual players can choose instead of a big mess that is the Manalink 3.0 one
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0151.zip- (576 Bytes) Downloaded 282 times
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by guinsoo » 28 Jun 2015, 02:16
Didn't mean to suggest that guidelines weren't good. Mostly, I don't think we have enough information at this point to come up with a good list, but here's my feedback on the guidelines so far:
1. Early decks seem like they could be stronger, at least by the criteria used (more on that later). The Djinni, Forest Dragon et al (level 4), and Druid et all (level 1) look especially weak.
2. I'm a big fan of fetchlands, and using them in almost every AI deck, even mono colored ones. They normalize the magic experience, giving players more lands early in the game when they need more and removing them from their deck so they draw less of them later. Getting land screwed one way or another is one of Magic's big drawbacks I feel, especially with the old mulligan rules on Shandalar, so I'm all for eliminating that as much as possible. Even without that consideration, I think fetchlands are being unduly restricted from the AIs here, the life cost hurts low level mobs much more than a normal 20 health player.
3. Dual lands seem to be more restricted to AI than players (they cost like 150-180 at bazaars). I do think they should be made more expensive, but I think the AIs for now should reflect the fact that the player will probably be getting his needed dual lands quickly. Makes sense for the first couple AIs to be dual land restricted, but I think it should open up faster. At the very least I think Djinni should have unlimited duals and fetchlands, and I think starting as early as tier 2 they could have 1-2 in deck with some fetchlands. I'm also anticipating we'll have Wastelands at some point.
4. Measuring a deck's quality is much more involved than its distribution of commons, uncommons, and rares; of those I think the number of uncommon cards might be most relevant as those tend to often be the staple cards. I don't know what exactly the solution is, maybe once we're at the point where card costs are balanced (in terms of how much they cost at a Nomad's Bazaar / Diamond Mine) then we could build/structure the decks by value, but even that doesn't account for synergy, good/bad deck construction, a good/bad mana curve, etc. Further, with the quantity of great commons and uncommons available, I don't think this data leads us to any meaningful conclusions about deck quality.
5. How are you guys handling 'non-Power-9-but-still-power' cards (e.g. Necropotence, Tolarian Academy, Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor) and 'moderately powerful restricted' cards (e.g. Fork, Regrowth, Enlightened Tutor)? Is that "Max Special"? Those two categories might even overlap or bleed into more categories. I've been doing none in the first 2 tiers and then scaling up (but probably plan to have more than 9 in the upper couple tiers).
6. On the note of deck size, I've had trouble squishing a couple tribal decks down to 60 cards. I'm a sucker for leaving in a single copy of old cards that used to be cool but now are pedestrian at best, and that's led to a couple 80 card decks that still seem reasonably challenging. On the other hand, I like the idea of doing 40 card decks for the first few tiers of enemies to help eliminate mana screws (which become less frequent in later decks with more dual lands, Moxes, filtering, etc). I like winning duels early in the adventure, but I don't like winning them because my opponent has no land and can't play anything. Once any significant number of restricted cards start going in the decks (tier 5/6+) it seems like it will be very difficult to go less than 60 cards.
Will update in a little bit with some AI decks.
1. Early decks seem like they could be stronger, at least by the criteria used (more on that later). The Djinni, Forest Dragon et al (level 4), and Druid et all (level 1) look especially weak.
2. I'm a big fan of fetchlands, and using them in almost every AI deck, even mono colored ones. They normalize the magic experience, giving players more lands early in the game when they need more and removing them from their deck so they draw less of them later. Getting land screwed one way or another is one of Magic's big drawbacks I feel, especially with the old mulligan rules on Shandalar, so I'm all for eliminating that as much as possible. Even without that consideration, I think fetchlands are being unduly restricted from the AIs here, the life cost hurts low level mobs much more than a normal 20 health player.
3. Dual lands seem to be more restricted to AI than players (they cost like 150-180 at bazaars). I do think they should be made more expensive, but I think the AIs for now should reflect the fact that the player will probably be getting his needed dual lands quickly. Makes sense for the first couple AIs to be dual land restricted, but I think it should open up faster. At the very least I think Djinni should have unlimited duals and fetchlands, and I think starting as early as tier 2 they could have 1-2 in deck with some fetchlands. I'm also anticipating we'll have Wastelands at some point.
4. Measuring a deck's quality is much more involved than its distribution of commons, uncommons, and rares; of those I think the number of uncommon cards might be most relevant as those tend to often be the staple cards. I don't know what exactly the solution is, maybe once we're at the point where card costs are balanced (in terms of how much they cost at a Nomad's Bazaar / Diamond Mine) then we could build/structure the decks by value, but even that doesn't account for synergy, good/bad deck construction, a good/bad mana curve, etc. Further, with the quantity of great commons and uncommons available, I don't think this data leads us to any meaningful conclusions about deck quality.
5. How are you guys handling 'non-Power-9-but-still-power' cards (e.g. Necropotence, Tolarian Academy, Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor) and 'moderately powerful restricted' cards (e.g. Fork, Regrowth, Enlightened Tutor)? Is that "Max Special"? Those two categories might even overlap or bleed into more categories. I've been doing none in the first 2 tiers and then scaling up (but probably plan to have more than 9 in the upper couple tiers).
6. On the note of deck size, I've had trouble squishing a couple tribal decks down to 60 cards. I'm a sucker for leaving in a single copy of old cards that used to be cool but now are pedestrian at best, and that's led to a couple 80 card decks that still seem reasonably challenging. On the other hand, I like the idea of doing 40 card decks for the first few tiers of enemies to help eliminate mana screws (which become less frequent in later decks with more dual lands, Moxes, filtering, etc). I like winning duels early in the adventure, but I don't like winning them because my opponent has no land and can't play anything. Once any significant number of restricted cards start going in the decks (tier 5/6+) it seems like it will be very difficult to go less than 60 cards.
Will update in a little bit with some AI decks.
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by Fourth Inversion » 28 Jun 2015, 05:10
A few additional thoughts. Some of the low level opponents, especially the Merfolk Shaman and Elvish Magi suggest tribal decks, but fully powered Merfolk and Elf decks are near the top of the power curve, and will crush any starting deck. As an idea, would it be possible to say have a lower powered random selection of decks for them when they are encountered overworld, and then a fully-powered one, possibly even with restricted cards if they show up in Dungeons/Castles?
If there's no easy way to increase the number of minions in Shandalar, then it may be worth relaxing flavour restrictions for the decks (particularly the decks for the 2 and 3 colour enemies, Wizards + their two highest ranked minions), to introduce as much variety as possible in the randomly selected decks?
For power and restricted cards in various forms, I think limiting them to the 2 + 3 colour decks, and the two strongest servants + the wizards would be best, using them where appropriate to boost the power of the deck's theme, saving decks will a full slate of the 'splashable' power cards, Black Lotus + Moxes etc. for the most powerful decks. The most broken card of all, Contract from Below, should probably only be in the final black deck + Arzakon's (also, the player can't acquire any additional ante cards that way).
Here's a possible deck low tier red deck, probably for the Sorceress, themed around Haste creatures, as a tribute of sorts to the original decks' Ball Lightning. I'm not sure if the AI knows how to use Sparkspitter, but otherwise it handles the deck fairly well. With a bottom-tier deck like this, I'm trying to make sure that it's challenging, but beatable as a first encounter. Where possible, I'm trying not to use the 'best' option in a colour for the initial decks, so although Ball Lightning would be a natural fit (and was in the original Sorceress deck), it's also strictly better in a mono-red deck than Arc Runner, so I've gone for the weaker option.
And an updated Beastmaster, with Skyshroud Claim instead of Explosive Vegetation.
If there's no easy way to increase the number of minions in Shandalar, then it may be worth relaxing flavour restrictions for the decks (particularly the decks for the 2 and 3 colour enemies, Wizards + their two highest ranked minions), to introduce as much variety as possible in the randomly selected decks?
For power and restricted cards in various forms, I think limiting them to the 2 + 3 colour decks, and the two strongest servants + the wizards would be best, using them where appropriate to boost the power of the deck's theme, saving decks will a full slate of the 'splashable' power cards, Black Lotus + Moxes etc. for the most powerful decks. The most broken card of all, Contract from Below, should probably only be in the final black deck + Arzakon's (also, the player can't acquire any additional ante cards that way).
Here's a possible deck low tier red deck, probably for the Sorceress, themed around Haste creatures, as a tribute of sorts to the original decks' Ball Lightning. I'm not sure if the AI knows how to use Sparkspitter, but otherwise it handles the deck fairly well. With a bottom-tier deck like this, I'm trying to make sure that it's challenging, but beatable as a first encounter. Where possible, I'm trying not to use the 'best' option in a colour for the initial decks, so although Ball Lightning would be a natural fit (and was in the original Sorceress deck), it's also strictly better in a mono-red deck than Arc Runner, so I've gone for the weaker option.
- | Open
And an updated Beastmaster, with Skyshroud Claim instead of Explosive Vegetation.
- | Open
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by guinsoo » 28 Jun 2015, 10:43
Hard to say (limited data) but I haven't found the Merfolk and Elf tribals to be as much of a challenge as expected. I tuned the decks locally to be what I thought was really challenging and some simple close-to-entry decks have beaten them handily, like a few Griffon Riders with a random smattering of Griffons. The Sorcerer deck I made with all haste minions and some burn has been a much, much harder challenge. In my current save I've spent a good 20k at the bazaars and I still struggle sometimes to beat the sorcerer.Fourth Inversion wrote:A few additional thoughts. Some of the low level opponents, especially the Merfolk Shaman and Elvish Magi suggest tribal decks, but fully powered Merfolk and Elf decks are near the top of the power curve, and will crush any starting deck. As an idea, would it be possible to say have a lower powered random selection of decks for them when they are encountered overworld, and then a fully-powered one, possibly even with restricted cards if they show up in Dungeons/Castles?
If there's no easy way to increase the number of minions in Shandalar, then it may be worth relaxing flavour restrictions for the decks (particularly the decks for the 2 and 3 colour enemies, Wizards + their two highest ranked minions), to introduce as much variety as possible in the randomly selected decks?
For power and restricted cards in various forms, I think limiting them to the 2 + 3 colour decks, and the two strongest servants + the wizards would be best, using them where appropriate to boost the power of the deck's theme, saving decks will a full slate of the 'splashable' power cards, Black Lotus + Moxes etc. for the most powerful decks. The most broken card of all, Contract from Below, should probably only be in the final black deck + Arzakon's (also, the player can't acquire any additional ante cards that way).
Here's a possible deck low tier red deck, probably for the Sorceress, themed around Haste creatures, as a tribute of sorts to the original decks' Ball Lightning. I'm not sure if the AI knows how to use Sparkspitter, but otherwise it handles the deck fairly well. With a bottom-tier deck like this, I'm trying to make sure that it's challenging, but beatable as a first encounter. Where possible, I'm trying not to use the 'best' option in a colour for the initial decks, so although Ball Lightning would be a natural fit (and was in the original Sorceress deck), it's also strictly better in a mono-red deck than Arc Runner, so I've gone for the weaker option.
- | Open
And an updated Beastmaster, with Skyshroud Claim instead of Explosive Vegetation.
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The AI's reluctance to attack in a moderately contested board (e.g. one of my creatures might die but the overall result would be highly superior for me but I still refuse to attack) unfortunately makes things a lot easier even when playing aggro.
Having said that, I'm struggling to make the upper-tier enemy decks have a signficant jump ahead compared to the middle-low tier enemies like Merfolk, Goblin, Mercenaries, etc. Might have to increase their power/Mox count.
Goblin Warlord deck:
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Edit: I really liked the Beastmaster deck someone posted earlier and I adapted it to my AI set, but I think it works much better for the SUMMONER. The deck is full of spells that summon a bunch of tokens and then makes them really big and angry! It's perfect! And, it leaves the beastmaster free for a beast/wolf/whatever deck.
Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by quatrocentos-e-vinte » 28 Jun 2015, 17:17
First of all... thanks for the comments, guinsoo. In my view, we can only reach a set of acceptable guidelines if those are thoroughly discussed. The underlying logic was, as stassy mentioned, to prevent a situation like we have in Manalink (where there are billions of decks, but their power levels are not matched at all, making the Gauntlet not particularly fun).
Clarifying some points:
- the restriction on fetchlands/duals was not so much to prevent AI from playing them as much as it was about preventing the player from getting them easily through grinding (i.e. fight low level creatures over and over again to get them); if people think it doesn't make much sense to restrict them, I don't see any problem with that (a deck's power level ends up depending more on the nonlands than the lands anyway).
- as pointed out by Bog Wraith, you are more than welcome to make and submit decks that don't conform at all to the guidelines (I'm 100% sure people will enjoy them either way... at least I will
).
- regarding the use of a spreadsheet, rather than a forum post... since it's probably not really possible to embed tables in forum posts, I guess I could also post a printscreen of the Excel file and post it along the file; alternatively, there's an online tool you can use to check your Shandalar decks against the current "deckbuilding guidelines" (in bulk, if you want), which probably makes things more practical (just make the decks as you want and then pass them all in bulk through the online tool, which will tell you which ones should probably be a bit tweaked, if you actually want to make them conform to the "guidelines").
- regarding the issue #4 you mention (i.e. the problem of estimation of a deck's "power level")... this has been considered, and I'm also providing (in the previously mentioned tool) an estimate based on (among other things) the price of the cards that compose the deck (both in Shandalar and real life paper MTG); this is obviously far from perfect (since it cannot take into account things like "card synergy"), but it seems to give reasonable results when applied to e.g. the original Shandalar decks.
- regarding the issue #5... I'm not sure you are looking at the latest file (see if it's this one viewtopic.php?p=180424#p180424)... basically, the class "Special" was replaced by "Mythic" (which includes both mythic rare cards and power 9s); it's not an ideal situation, i know...
- regarding issue #6... I don't see any problem in relaxing the "number of cards in the deck" restrictions (and I doubt anyone else will either).
So... guinsoo... just confirm if you are looking at the latest file; see how you would modify it to make sense to you, and send it to me (i.e. post it here), if you have time and are willing to do so. I'll try to modify the guidelines to conform to your approach, if feasible.
Having into account guinsoo's comment, I will make the use of fetch lands and dual lands less restricted in the meantime (and will accordingly post a new set of guidelines once i have a bit of free time, and update the online tool). If anyone strongly disagrees (I doubt), just say something. Any other comments and suggestions are welcome.
Fourth Inversion: Yes, tribal decks can be horribly overpowered; that's actually why I thought that some guidelines were really necessary Restricting the number of rares kinda prevents those situations where half the decks are "Lords". My experience particularly against Merfolks has been different from guinsoo: I often get my assed kicked but maybe I just play really bad
Clarifying some points:
- the restriction on fetchlands/duals was not so much to prevent AI from playing them as much as it was about preventing the player from getting them easily through grinding (i.e. fight low level creatures over and over again to get them); if people think it doesn't make much sense to restrict them, I don't see any problem with that (a deck's power level ends up depending more on the nonlands than the lands anyway).
- as pointed out by Bog Wraith, you are more than welcome to make and submit decks that don't conform at all to the guidelines (I'm 100% sure people will enjoy them either way... at least I will
).- regarding the use of a spreadsheet, rather than a forum post... since it's probably not really possible to embed tables in forum posts, I guess I could also post a printscreen of the Excel file and post it along the file; alternatively, there's an online tool you can use to check your Shandalar decks against the current "deckbuilding guidelines" (in bulk, if you want), which probably makes things more practical (just make the decks as you want and then pass them all in bulk through the online tool, which will tell you which ones should probably be a bit tweaked, if you actually want to make them conform to the "guidelines").
- regarding the issue #4 you mention (i.e. the problem of estimation of a deck's "power level")... this has been considered, and I'm also providing (in the previously mentioned tool) an estimate based on (among other things) the price of the cards that compose the deck (both in Shandalar and real life paper MTG); this is obviously far from perfect (since it cannot take into account things like "card synergy"), but it seems to give reasonable results when applied to e.g. the original Shandalar decks.
- regarding the issue #5... I'm not sure you are looking at the latest file
(see if it's this one viewtopic.php?p=180424#p180424)... basically, the class "Special" was replaced by "Mythic" (which includes both mythic rare cards and power 9s); it's not an ideal situation, i know...- regarding issue #6... I don't see any problem in relaxing the "number of cards in the deck" restrictions (and I doubt anyone else will either).
So... guinsoo... just confirm if you are looking at the latest file; see how you would modify it to make sense to you, and send it to me (i.e. post it here), if you have time and are willing to do so. I'll try to modify the guidelines to conform to your approach, if feasible.
Having into account guinsoo's comment, I will make the use of fetch lands and dual lands less restricted in the meantime (and will accordingly post a new set of guidelines once i have a bit of free time, and update the online tool). If anyone strongly disagrees (I doubt
), just say something. Any other comments and suggestions are welcome.Fourth Inversion: Yes, tribal decks can be horribly overpowered; that's actually why I thought that some guidelines were really necessary
Restricting the number of rares kinda prevents those situations where half the decks are "Lords". My experience particularly against Merfolks has been different from guinsoo: I often get my assed kicked but maybe I just play really bad - quatrocentos-e-vinte
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by Fourth Inversion » 29 Jun 2015, 09:24
Here's one of many possible decks for Alt-A-Kesh (Green Djinn), in this case, a control deck with Lord of Extinction. The relative strength of this deck could be scaled up or down as needed, by increasing or decreasing the number of power cards. This sort of deck is probably a fair bit weaker in the hands of the AI than a human, so it should end up being around mid-range in difficulty?
@quatrocentos-e-vinte With so many cards to choose from, my only thought would be to loosen the flavour requirements surrounding each charater, so that a fun deck can be made with any colour combination without worrying if it fits the image suggested by a particular minion. In Magic Duels: Origins, I think there's been mention of the AI decks potentially having access to every single magic card, and similarly, it'd make Shandalar more enjoyable, with the chance to play against as wide a range of cards and decks as possible. I guess an example might be, instead of having Goblin Warlord = Goblin tribal deck, maybe allow for a Red aggro or burn deck using some Goblin cards to also be an alternative deck?
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@quatrocentos-e-vinte With so many cards to choose from, my only thought would be to loosen the flavour requirements surrounding each charater, so that a fun deck can be made with any colour combination without worrying if it fits the image suggested by a particular minion. In Magic Duels: Origins, I think there's been mention of the AI decks potentially having access to every single magic card, and similarly, it'd make Shandalar more enjoyable, with the chance to play against as wide a range of cards and decks as possible. I guess an example might be, instead of having Goblin Warlord = Goblin tribal deck, maybe allow for a Red aggro or burn deck using some Goblin cards to also be an alternative deck?
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul
by jiansonz » 29 Jun 2015, 10:55
It IS menacing if it gets going, in-flavour and fun.stassy wrote:Here is Orion79 take on Nether Fiend with available cards adjustment :
0151.dck
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The original deck is supposed to be a Lord of the Pit deck which feed from token and returnable creature. Orion79 added his own flavor with more Demons in order to fit the theme and I added some removals in order to keep it alive (and left some crap in because it's supposed to be a medium level enemy).
The AI rarely get the good combo setting off (token then demon to feed) but with Dark Ritual to pull of some big demons it's menacing enough.
I like it a lot but I think it needs a little help.
* I do not see the point of having Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse in a monocoloured deck, at least one that does not feed from 'number of cards in the graveyard'. It slows down an already slow deck. Wouldn't it be better with just two more Swamps instead?
* Dark Tutelage adds a sinister and interesting gambling aspect but I think it's a tad too dangerous for the deck as it looks now, with so many high-cost demons while not having much life gain. When I played the deck in gauntlets, I found that I ususally did not want to cast Dark Tutelage unless I was getting desperate.
I would try to find a spot for 2-3 Vampiric Link instead, I think that would significantly add to the deck's staying power. Maybe drop a few of the creature removals, as Vampiric Link can be used defensively as well, if needed.
* Master of the Feast is a great creature for the cost, and (aside from Bitterblossom) the only creature with a mana cost less than 5 the deck has. I would swap out a Yawgmoth Demon for one more MotF.
@Fourth Inversion: I can't wait to try out that Alt-A-Kesh deck! I can't even picture how it plays, which makes it really interesting.
EDIT: I think it's great! So very different from anything else I've seen (nearly all my MtG experience is from the old Shandalar).
Last edited by jiansonz on 29 Jun 2015, 16:56, edited 2 times in total.
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