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Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

MicroProse's Shandalar Campaign Game, now with new cards & a new look!

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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby jiansonz » 29 May 2013, 09:10

BitNinja wrote:Request:

How about a master wizard version of decks? Things without some of the chaff filler seen in decks, and without cards that the computer plays badly? It's humorous watching the CPU kill itself instead of untapping Mana Vaults, but......

Things like putting Moat in Winged Stallion deck, replacing Erg Raiders with Juggernauts, the above mentioned Mana Vaults with a Sol Ring and Fellwar Stones, etc.
I haven't checked out podbelski's version yet. I will probably like a lot of it, but I am not fond of going below 60 cards in the decks. Feels a bit like cheating to me.

Yes, in my next major revision, I am going to switch out a lot of things the computer plays badly. What's strange about Mana Vault is that the computer uses it well in the dueling section of the game (at least in my game version) but not in Shandalar. I will probably still keep it in most of the decks that have it, because of the power of a 2nd turn Sengir Vampire, Serra Angel or Elemental.

Juggernaut is a good idea, particularly for the artifact friendly decks of Shapeshifter and Sainted One. There is one minor problem with this card, though. The computer does not understand it can block. One can sort of get around this with a rule for yourself that you should not attack against a newly summoned one if you would not have done it if the computer knew it can block.

There are two problems with Moat. One specific to the card: the computer just refuses to play it. Ever. Second, it would work against the Winged Stallion's Segovian Leviathan cards. It can attack under Island Sanctuary but not under Moat.

Another card I think the computer plays badly (now that I have duelled quite a bit):
Diamond Valley: the computer uses it too much (especially with Birds of Paradise) and only sometimes will it use it the smart way on a creature it has assigned as blocker - one that is going to die in the combat and not kill anything.

If there are other cards you think the computer can't handle (I have seen a couple more but can't recall them now) I want to know about it.

BitNinja wrote:I'd be happy to help collaborate, but I don't have the ability to do the actual changes.
I think you do, if you give it a try. I explain in the first post in the thread how it works.

I appreciate all input and ideas.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby podbelski » 29 May 2013, 09:19

hmm... I thought the AI uses Moat card well, will doublecheck it...

regarding Mana Vault, you can replace it with Basalt Monolith instead of Sol Ring if you want
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby podbelski » 29 May 2013, 15:06

just have checked - my Winged Stallion is able to use the Moat card. I beleive I'm playing with Manalink 2.0 patch installed, and along with Tapani mod (it fixes some bugs but AFAIK does nothing to AI)
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby BitNinja » 29 May 2013, 22:19

podbelski wrote:hmm... I thought the AI uses Moat card well, will doublecheck it...

regarding Mana Vault, you can replace it with Basalt Monolith instead of Sol Ring if you want
Right, I was thinking of a mix. If a deck has 4 vaults, maybe go with 1 vault, 1 sol ring, 1 fellwar stone and 1 basalt monolith, or something similar.

If the CPU never plays moat, that's obviously super bad. If it does, the Leviathan thing can be resolved by just changing them to Thunder Spirit or Serra Angel. IIRC Island Sanctuary doesn't affect how you can attack when you use it, so having an Islandwalker is kind of neat, but in reality you're just casting an overcost Hill Giant.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby jiansonz » 30 May 2013, 07:36

BitNinja wrote:IIRC Island Sanctuary doesn't affect how you can attack when you use it,
Right you are. It only affects the opponent.

BitNinja wrote:so having an Islandwalker is kind of neat, but in reality you're just casting an overcost Hill Giant.
Maybe so, but that deck has the ability to Magical Hack it to other kinds of landwalking, so it still has some value.


@podbelski: Nice that Moat worked for you.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby doj » 14 Jul 2013, 22:08

The bigger problem with Juggernaut may be that the AI does not realize *you* can block with it on the first turn, so it suicides 2-power creatures into it. Sadly, any patch that tried to put the AI on an even footing just by changing the card pool should pull it out (along with Mishra's Factory if possible).

On a random note, you asked for Fungus Master deck edit ideas; Whirling Dervish seems like an obvious thematic fit to me, as another green creature that can gain +1/+1 counters over time.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby jiansonz » 18 Jul 2013, 14:58

doj wrote:The bigger problem with Juggernaut may be that the AI does not realize *you* can block with it on the first turn, so it suicides 2-power creatures into it. Sadly, any patch that tried to put the AI on an even footing just by changing the card pool should pull it out (along with Mishra's Factory if possible).
Yep, I agree about Juggernaut, but the overhaul can't do much about the players' decks.

I do not think there is a big problem with Mishra's Factory in Shandalar. Unlike my current version of the Duel game, the computer does see it as a 2/2 creature in Shandalar if the player (both human and computer) has an extra mana. However, it does not understand that it (as a blocker) can pump itself from the second turn on, and therefore can survive repeated blockings against an attacking power 2 creature (even one with First Strike) so it misses out on blocking opportunities in those situations. Shandalar uses the old rule that states that blocking creatures that tap before damage is dealt deals no combat damage, so the player can't use (abuse?) one to kill an attacking Black Knight or War Mammoth.

In my experience, in the instance where the computer has more than one Factory out, it uses them to pump each other pretty well. It does not understand the player can do this, though, and that is of course a big weakness.



doj wrote:On a random note, you asked for Fungus Master deck edit ideas; Whirling Dervish seems like an obvious thematic fit to me, as another green creature that can gain +1/+1 counters over time.
Yeah, I'll consider that. It does work nicely along with Unsummon (or with Power Sink to stop early summons from the player) to get them through early on, so they can build up.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby Balathus » 09 Nov 2013, 23:07

Dude, cleric is bugged as fuck. Throw me 6 (!) swords to plowshares in a single game. Was so annoying.

BTW, are you the same Jiansonz from Diablo inc gamers?
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby gmzombie » 11 Nov 2013, 03:53

im pretty sure that is how the game is played..no limits in shandalar. no bans or restrictions
can I maze of ith your snowstorm?

http://home.comcast.net/~gmzombie/index.html old stuff in here. don't use this stuff right now till I get time to get back into it and readjust.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby HarlequinCasts » 11 Nov 2013, 04:11

Balathus wrote:Dude, cleric is bugged as fuck. Throw me 6 (!) swords to plowshares in a single game. Was so annoying.
For the player, you deck construction is limited to 3 levels, At first you can have 3 of any card and a 40 card deck. Later if you buy the Tome of Enlightenment, you can have 4 of any card and a 60 card max. If you buy the tome again, I believe you can have any number of cards.

Anyhow pretty much the decks are a very casual pre vintage standard where people can have any number of anything it seems. The AI is gonna do that sometimes but you wont find any decks that are all Lightning Bolt, Ancestral Recall, and Black Lotus or anything.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby Balathus » 11 Nov 2013, 23:21

jiansonz wrote:My house rules of Shandalar decks
(meaning: the enemy decks must also follow them)

* A deck has 60 or more cards (except for a player at the very beginning of a Shandalar campaign).
* 4 copies maximum of cards other than basic lands
* 1 copy maximum of restricted cards
(the three lines above means I have no use for the Tome of Enlightenment, so I don´t buy it)
* Mana Vault, Balance, Land Tax and Black Vise are not restriced, so up to 4 can be used
* I used no 'ante cards' other than Bronze Tablet and Jeweled Bird. I would have used Tempest Efreet if it wasn´t so buggy...
From the very first post of this thread ;).
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby jiansonz » 13 Nov 2013, 07:56

Balathus wrote:Dude, cleric is bugged as fuck. Throw me 6 (!) swords to plowshares in a single game. Was so annoying.
I think he must have used two sideboards at the same time. I have seen this happen against the Priestess, where she cast both CoP:Black and CoP:White in the same game. That would explain it, as his deck has two StP in the main deck and two in each sideboard. Do you have a better suggestion as to what to put there instead? (I do not want him to be too good at being color specific, as he is a lower-grade enemy)



Balathus wrote:BTW, are you the same Jiansonz from Diablo inc gamers?
Yes :D
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby podbelski » 13 Nov 2013, 09:39

my 2 cents:

AFAIK, a particular sideboard is used if a player has at least one land of that color.
Sideboards should be used to give a small bonus against certain color, not to change AI strategy depending on opposing deck color.

so I rarely use them, occasionally giving one or two cards to some decks in certain situations...
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby Balathus » 13 Nov 2013, 21:14

jiansonz wrote:Do you have a better suggestion as to what to put there instead? (I do not want him to be too good at being color specific, as he is a lower-grade enemy)
How about spirit links?


jiansonz wrote:Yes :D
Hey I'm Baltha. I think we have talked each other in the SP forum a lot of time ago. Loved your untwinked single-pass mf guide back in the day.
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Re: Shandalar enemy decks overhaul

Postby stassy » 11 May 2015, 20:04

In the process of overhauling Shandalar enemy decks with the new Shandalar 2015 Korath Edition, here are some decks I hastily created in order to make enemy a bit more challenging with the new cards, it's a work of progress so subject to change as new cards will be available. Here is what I am currently trying to do :
- Trying to keep color/theme to each enemy
- Low life like enemies Undead Knight or Sorceress must do maximum fast damage to current player before dying in order to raise the challenge in dungeon as life is carried over
- Change the sideboard in the future, currently remain unchanged
- Use all newest cards if possible without breaking the rule above

Sorcerer : Mono Red Haste deck
| Open
.295 4 Ball Lightning
.11090 4 Arc Runner
.12172 4 Erdwal Ripper
.13737 2 Impetuous Sunchaser
.145 4 Lightning Bolt
.164 22 Mountain
.1476 4 Slith Firewalker
.1263 4 Spark Elemental
.13477 4 Lightning Strike
.1187 4 Volcanic Hammer
.13579 4 Titan's Strength


Sorceress : Mono Red Burn deck
| Open
.164 20 Mountain
.145 4 Lightning Bolt
.13477 4 Lightning Strike
.1253 4 Char
.1535 4 Flame Rift
.1263 4 Spark Elemental
.295 4 Ball Lightning
.4309 4 Fire Ambush
.6936 4 Pulse of the Forge
.12614 4 Searing Spear
.1187 4 Volcanic Hammer


Undead Knight : WB Infect deck
| Open
.188 11 Plains
.239 11 Swamp
.11281 4 Ichor Rats
.11496 4 Phyrexian Crusader
.11509 4 Priests of Norn
.968 3 Pacifism
.8872 2 Vampiric Link
.240 3 Swords to Plowshares
.10408 2 Doom Blade
.8803 4 Mana Tithe
.11011 2 Oust
.11149 2 Mighty Leap
.11334 4 Plague Stinger
.11451 4 Go for the Throat


Witch : Mono Black Survive-with-less-than-10-life
| Open
.3121 4 Dauthi Slayer
.16 4 Black Knight
.14278 4 Gurmag Swiftwing
.11931 4 Diregraf Ghoul
.55 4 Dark Ritual
.12860 4 Ultimate Price
.10465 2 Sign in Blood
.582 4 Blight
.1456 4 Hymn to Tourach
.8872 2 Vampiric Link
.12442 4 Predator's Gambit
.239 20 Swamp


Warlock : Mono Black Tickle-the-player-with-hindering-things-before-dying-miserably
| Open
.239 11 Swamp
.1488 4 Bloodstained Mire
.528 4 Strip Mine
.216 4 Scrubland
.7811 4 Dark Confidant
.117 4 Hypnotic Specter
.1260 3 Nantuko Shade
.55 4 Dark Ritual
.1456 4 Hymn to Tourach
.226 4 Sinkhole
.1302 4 Vindicate
.5612 4 Mind Burst


Goblin Warlord : Tribal Goblin deck, slow to start but it start at 20+ life so should be ok for a bit
| Open
.528 4 Strip Mine
.164 17 Mountain
.168 1 Mox Ruby
.6577 2 Siege-Gang Commander
.10422 4 Goblin Chieftain
.102 1 Goblin King
.3780 4 Goblin Matron
.6156 4 Goblin Piledriver
.2712 4 Goblin Recruiter
.14126 1 Krenko's Enforcer
.12517 2 Beetleback Chief
.9483 4 Bloodmark Mentor
.11119 4 Ember Hauler
.11812 4 Goblin Fireslinger
.10549 4 Goblin Shortcutter


Lord of Fate : Tribal Zombie deck, this is a placeholder deck until I can find a good WB deck for this high end enemy which start at 25+ life
| Open
.239 24 Swamp
.6396 4 Graveborn Muse
.55 4 Dark Ritual
.9946 4 Death Baron
.8 4 Bad Moon
.11931 4 Diregraf Ghoul
.1157 4 Spineless Thug
.14151 4 Paragon of Open Graves
.5866 4 Putrid Imp
.12207 4 Highborn Ghoul


Extract the content of the zip file in the Decks folder of your Shandalar folder and overwrite everything after you backed up the original content
Attachments
Decks.zip
(2.76 KiB) Downloaded 203 times
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