Premade decks please

[sponeta]

Great news about the AI. When testing decks, I mostly use Vegas at the highest level myself, since it's so fast (except when it suddenly gets stuck for a minute). For just playing, I like Monte Carlo, but I usually set it to a lower level to keep the thinking time at a manageable level. It still provides a good challenge, and I have a fairly fast computer anyway so even a low level should be able to make intelligent decisions.

I switch between cheating and non-cheating AIs quite a bit, because both get predictable in their own ways regarding setting up traps, like goading the opponent to block a weenie when you have a Giant Growth in hand. With a human player you never know if he'll spot the trap or not, but a cheating AI always spots it, and a non-cheating AI never spots it. Switching AIs every once in a while keeps old decks fresh when the reactions are different.

Two more decks:

decks_2013-04b.zip

(907 Bytes) Downloaded 323 times

Squirrels
A massive horde of fuzzy wuzzy critters with sharp teeth.

Graveyard Eater
Draw, discard and mill yourself to pump creatures that grow in power based on the number of cards in your graveyard. Counter-intuition at its finest! This deck burns through your library so fast that it has 80 cards and is in fact made all the stronger for it.

[melvin]

Great news about the AI. When testing decks, I mostly use Vegas at the highest level myself, since it's so fast (except when it suddenly gets stuck for a minute). For just playing, I like Monte Carlo, but I usually set it to a lower level to keep the thinking time at a manageable level. It still provides a good challenge, and I have a fairly fast computer anyway so even a low level should be able to make intelligent decisions.

The Vegas AI will be changed in the next release to use the AI level as the thinking time, it might get slower at the lower levels as the minimum thinking time is 1s. The benefit is that this will hopefully eliminate those minute long pauses.

There is some progress on the custom decks evaluation I mentioned earlier. Currently my plan is to pick a fix AI (based on the recent AI benchmarking, probably honest MCTS at 8s) and vary the decks. As part of AI evaluation, I've found a method (whole history rating) that can take a whole bunch of pairwise plays to determine the strength of an AI and I think the same technique can be applied to decks.

I switch between cheating and non-cheating AIs quite a bit, because both get predictable in their own ways regarding setting up traps, like goading the opponent to block a weenie when you have a Giant Growth in hand. With a human player you never know if he'll spot the trap or not, but a cheating AI always spots it, and a non-cheating AI never spots it. Switching AIs every once in a while keeps old decks fresh when the reactions are different.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the honest MCTS AI, it might actually be able to spot traps sometimes as it uses a random selection of cards from the opponent's library as the opponent's hand when performing a simulated play.

Two more decks:

Great decks, just added them for the next release coming our this weekend. I must show your squirrels deck to a friend of mine, he loves using squirrel cards. Loled at the "fuzzy wuzzy critters"

[sponeta]

That sounds very interesting! Can't wait to try out the new version.

As for the squirrels, I got that idea from playing with randomly-generated decks (a lot of my decks actually start out this way). One deck happened to have multiple squirrel cards, and they just looked so ridiculous I had to see if they'd work. And strangely enough, they did.

[melvin]

Just curious, but how do you tell if a deck "works"? When you mentioned that most of your decks started from the randomly generated decks, it go me thinking if we can evolve decks using genetic algorithms with cards as the digital genes.

[sponeta]

Well, let's see... it's kind of hard to put into words. Nothing as simple as win/loss ratio.

Most of the deck ideas come from playing. I spot a combo where two or more cards work together really well. That's going to be the deck's theme. It can be based purely on abilities, but often the card names and flavor text are involved, too. I can't say that I think vampires are awesome, but it's still fun to make a deck out of them.

So the deck always gets built around a theme that's more or less conceptual. Then I start looking for cards that do the same thing as the base combo but in a slightly different way, or augment the base combo. For example, if the base theme is cheap white humans, I look for cards that give +1/+1 to white creatures or humans, bonuses for controlling many creatures, or equipment that's more effective on humans. Or if the theme is returning creatures to the battlefield, I look for cards with abilities that activate when entering the battlefield. I also look for similar flavors, like other creatures of the same subtype (human, zombie, vampire) and see if they have something in common. I also look for cards that are related only thematically, like humans and angels, vampires and zombies, fireballs and dragons, and so on.

When I'm testing, I try to see if the theme actually comes through. Let's say the theme is "vampires eating humans", which I got from drawing Falkenrath Aristocrat, Village Cannibals and Cathedral Sanctifier in a random game. If after several games I haven't actually managed to have a vampire eat a single human, the theme doesn't work. Usually the reason behind this is that the mana cost is too high.

There are also times when the deck wins but the theme doesn't really matter. The Human Sacrifice deck is a borderline case, because I won some games just by getting early lucky draws with the human cards and didn't even get to the point where I needed the vampires. Although, to be fair, if the deck is good despite the theme, it's a starting point for a different theme. Usually the truth is that the theme isn't actually useful in a real situation. In other words, if the theme isn't getting realized, the deck isn't fun for me.

So a deck doesn't work when the theme doesn't work.

Conversely, the deck works if it wins at least sometimes, and if the victories, when they appear, are caused by the theme. In MtG, the biggest determining factor still ends up being the optimal mana curve, so I'm not too worried about optimizing against every possibility. It's enough that the deck doesn't rely on the opponent getting really poor cards.

Sometimes a theme is fun enough that I'll keep it even if it's impractical. For example, the Eldrazi deck wins every time the theme gets realized, but that happens less than 50% of the time. But it's still fun for me, though I can't quite explain why.

From another perspective, I'm not really looking for the perfect deck. I guess I like just the act of building decks, the planning of it. Once I've proven that it the idea works at least a few times, I move on to the next idea.

This results in a lot of decks that aren't necessarily polished to the maximum, but on the other hand, it gives a fighting chance for everyone else who isn't building a perfect deck.

Well... that was a bit of a brain fart. Hope you got something out of it.

[melvin]

Thanks, sponeta, for attempting to put it into words, it came across very well. I'm a terrible deck builder, your explanation is very helpful for me. Being more interested in numbers and metrics, I tend to look along these lines but your explanations helped me realize why your decks are so fun and flavorful. Keep it up!

[sponeta]

Haha, well, sometimes I think I could use a bit more of that numbers expertise. A lot of my deck ideas turn out to be totally impractical. That Thallid deck for example kept losing every game until I spotted the Devour mechanic, which at least gave it a fighting chance.

But that's what I like about Magarena. It allows me to quickly try out wild ideas that would be difficult or impossible with the real physical version of MtG. There's a massive amount of cards, and not all rares are made equal. There are lots of niche cards that I imagine don't see a lot of use because they aren't awesome and require a very particular deck to work. But with Magarena, those decks can actually be built for real, without regard for tournament rules, rarity cost or even card availability.

I'm playing around with the new AI. Will let you know more once I've played more games to get a feel for it.

[sponeta]

A new set of decks for May.

decks_2013-05.zip

(3.97 KiB) Downloaded 301 times

Beastly (40)
Beasts: not just brute force. They're noisy and smelly too, and they break things. What's not to like? Also contains Garruk, Primal Hunter.

Dogs of War (40)
After seeing Hound of Griselbrand in a random deck, I did a search for "hound", and noticed that pretty much all hound creatures are actually quite good, with relatively low mana costs and useful combat abilities. What's more, they were mostly red and white, which means strong offense. Some of the new Battalion creatures fit in really well, both with the theme and with the mechanics. I considered making a 60-card deck and adding green and white wolves, but this concise deck felt better. I was surprised to find out that this deck actually gives a decent fight against the stronger premade decks as well.

Shaper
Venser's adventures in the aether. I started building a deck around Venser, the Sojourner, mindful that there'd be a low chance to actually draw that card. I ended up with yet another deck based around abilities that exile and return creatures. So, Blade Splicer and friends are the main powerhouse here, but you also have many ways to bounce or disable your opponents creatures, and Draining Whelk can be used multiple times with Nephalia Smuggler and Cloudshift. Parallax Wave is useful on your own creatures too. Soultether Golem is actually useful as an early creature since lots of creatures will be entering the battlefield. In the end, this is a deck that requires a bit of thought to play, but chances are you'll win each game in a different way.

Sliver Rainbow
One of each Sliver, just because. Gotta catch 'em all!

Soulmates
A deck based on the Soulbond ability. It's a cheap way to add power to creatures, so it comboes well with abilities that get better based on creature power. Defiant Elf actually has something to trample with, Bloodshot Trainee can activate its ability right away, and Hateflayer deals disgusting amounts of damage. Also, I've been looking for a way to get Laccolith Whelp & co into a deck, and they fit in nicely here.

Spirited Away
On the surface, this deck is similar to my earlier deck Tapmaster, consisting of many ways to tap your opponent's permanents. However, where Tapmaster does nothing else, Spirited Away has many other ways of disabling your opponent until you can finish the job with Latch Seeker, Sturmgeist and Gideon's Avenger.

There Will Be Blood
Lots of creatures dealing noncombat ping damage, culminating in Gratuitous Violence. Also Backlash and Kiku's Shadow, because they're just so satisfying to cast on huge beasts.

Vampire Blues
You know all those red vampires that get +1/+1 counters when they deal combat damage to a player, like Bloodcrazed Neonate? They're really good, except they start out so weak they always get burned or blocked to death before they reach the player. The solution: add a sprinkle of blue to make them unblockable and blast-proof.

[elias]

I would want to play with official preconstructed decks or intro packs, especially from the standard format. Would it be possible to make these kind of decks? Are enough cards available for the standard format to do these decks?

[hong yie]

I would want to play with official preconstructed decks or intro packs, especially from the standard format. Would it be possible to make these kind of decks? Are enough cards available for the standard format to do these decks?

Will try to complete some "champion Decks". many cards in magarena are made based on popularity, most cards in champion decks seemed to be available already.

[hong yie]

My "Enchantress" test deck, rename it accordingly.
enchant_test.dec

Code: Select all

# 4 creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Verduran Enchantress
3 Wall of Blossoms
2 Yavimaya Enchantress

# 16 spells
2 Ajani's Mantra
2 Angelic Destiny
1 Asceticism
4 Awakening Zone
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Collective Blessing
1 Commander's Authority
1 Crescendo of War
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Enchantress's Presence
3 Exploration
3 Gaea's Anthem
1 Proper Burial
1 Raking Canopy
2 Rancor
1 True Conviction

# 3 lands
10 Forest
8 Plains
4 Savannah

>Only enchantress creatures & hell lot of enchantments featuring:
Awakening Zone : the cheapest creature token generated, producing Eldrazi Spawn each turn
+ many many empowering enchantment

[elias]

Maybe it would be useful if there was a beginner deck (for people completely new to MTG), basically this would be a deck with simple cards and the keywords always explained on the cards. This deck could then be listed on the new duel screen. Then there could also be a medium and an advanced deck, so the player could gradually learn the game.

I think this should be pretty easy to do and would be quite useful.

I would also want to see a complete defence deck or something similar for the AI, this would be a deck which the AI can not win with (i.e. the AI can not attack or cause damage), so the player could only focus on learning the game.

[glorfindel]

Here are a few more decks:

Glorfindel_GWR_Zoo.dec

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An updated version of my zoo deck, taking advantage of recently implemented cards. This should be stronger than the old version.

Glorfindel_W_Auras-40.dec

(309 Bytes) Downloaded 284 times

A white aura deck. Buff a Spiritdancer with auras and attack for the win. Vulnerable to instant removal, but very powerful against anything else. The AI plays this reasonably well, except that it doesn't understand how to use Spirit Link on its own creatures.

And a couple of themed decks using the new planeswalkers:

Glorfindel_G_Garruk.dec

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A fun "Timmy" style Garruk deck. Once your draw engine is up and running, oveload the board with beasts and attack.

Glorfindel_W_Elspeth.dec

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An Elspeth themed soldier deck.

[sponeta]

The deck-making ninja is back from a long vacation! Thanks to the wealth of new cards added since 1.37, I've got a whole bunch of new decks to play around with. I also updated many of my old decks with newly implemented cards, but now I can't find those anywhere... I'll post them later if I find them, or just do the updates over again. Anyway, here are the decks:

decks_sep2013.zip

(10.93 KiB) Downloaded 265 times

Artifact Recycler
Recycle modular artifact creatures for fun and profit! Doesn't matter if they get killed or if you sacrifice them, bring them back for another round with reanimation. Much better than my old "Arcbound Tinker" deck. And makes great use of Glissa, the Traitor, who I've been wanting to put into a deck for a long time, but never found one that would fit her.

Birds
Cheap killer pigeons combined with some denial.

Burn Myself
Play creatures that damage the opponent when receiving damage (Spitemare, Boros Reckoner, Stuffy Doll). Set fire to everything. Profit.

Burning Fury
Pure pyromania deck with card drawing to keep the fires going.

Card Power
A slow deck based around Maro, Sturmgeist and drawing lots of cards.

Exalted Lightning
Yet another exalted deck, this time with expendable creatures with trample and haste like Ball Lightning. You don't need to keep your attackers alive when they stomp right through the defenses. Deal over 10 damage with a single creature, then double strike for total annihilation!

Glint (60)
A deck exploiting the Glint Hawk/Ornithopter/Glaze Fiend combo. This 60-card update of the original has even more ways of removing and returning artifacts to the battlefield, as well as more combo potential with Ichor Wellspring and Spine of Ish Sah.

Griffins
Griffins are surprisingly deadly. It's easy to dismiss common utility keywords like flying, first strike and vigilance, but they can make all the difference. I put a bunch of griffins into one deck, added a few blue utility spells, and the result is fast and strong.

Holy Wood
I'm really proud of this one. I started out with an idea about dryads and centaurs because I'd never used either. Then I saw the theme would center around the Populate mechanic, also something I'd never tried. In the end, the deck's focus is on creating big tokens and populating them, rather than an endless stream of 1/1 weenie tokens. It's also got creatures that grow in power/toughness based on the number of creatures. However, they don't benefit so much from the tokens, but from the useful early weenies like Elvish Visionary, Llanowar Elves and even the weird land-creature Dryad Arbor! Finally, there's a smattering of blue that allows you to tokenize your early weenies, giving more sources for populate. For laughs, cast Elvish Visionary, then Pongify it, and finally populate it! This deck seems to be able to win in many different ways, not always with the same combo.

Insect Doom
Things with more legs than is strictly necessary.

Pain and Gain
Good black cards that require you to pay life combined with white life gain. Also makes good use of pain lands. Be prepared for your life to hop up and down like a pogo stick!

Random Usefulness
A green-white deck nearly straight out of the random generator. The choices were really good and support each other, even though there's no central theme other than a bit of populate. I changed only a couple of cards that had ability costs that used black mana.

Sorcerer
Red and blue. Burn and counter.

Spirit Recycler
A rather slow deck with a variety of spirits, soulshift and reanimation. Not the greatest deck around, but I'd always wanted to do something with Soulshift.

Unlikely Allies
Based on Allies, most cards in this deck support each other. There's no single card or combo that wins the game, this should work pretty much regardless of draw order. Color combination is a rare red-white-black.

Venser's Artifacts
All sorts of accumulated artifacts. Doesn't have many combos other than a sub-theme with exile and return. Also doesn't have any over-used Splicers.

White Infect (40 and 60 card versions)
White can do Infect too! Priests of Norn really rock. On the surface, it looks like a mediocre card: poor strength, a little expensive, and who needs vigilance anyway? But thanks to that 4 toughness (and more buffed), they're far more durable than the more common green and black creatures with Infect. And with vigilance, you can pester your opponent and still defend, which you can't do with aggro infect decks.

Zombie Overlord
As a change from all those zombie weenie decks, this one concentrates on big spells and makes use of rare blue-black cards. Hold out by destroying the opponent's creatures and milling until you have enough lands, then reanimate everything. Maniacal cackling is optional, but recommended.

[melvin]

Thanks for the new decks, glorfindel and sponeta I've included them in the next release.