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[confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

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[confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Korath » 01 Jul 2017, 03:52

Describe the bug:
If Sutured Ghoul exiles a creature with a power/toughness characteristic-defining ability, it uses that card's power/toughness as it existed in the graveyard at the moment you exiled it, and with any previously-chosen creatures already exiled.

So if you have only a Lord of Extinction and a Grizzly Bears in your graveyard, the AI has nothing in its graveyard, and you select the Lord first and the Bears second, your Ghoul becomes 4/4 and stays there. If you select the Bears first and the Lord second, it stays at 3/3.

Also, accidentally clicking on a card that's not a creature is taken to mean "I'm done picking creatures to exile", which is highly annoying.

Which card behaved improperly?
Sutured Ghoul.

Which update are you using? (date, name)Which type? (duel, gauntlet, sealed deck)
Dev f69fea3.

What exactly should be the correct behavior/interaction?
Ruling: 9/22/2011: If any of the creature cards you exile has a characteristic-defining ability that defines its power and/or toughness, that ability will apply. For example, if Dungrove Elder is exiled this way, its power and toughness while it's in exile are equal to the number of Forests you control, and Sutured Ghoul's power and toughness will change as the number of Forests you control changes. If the characteristic-defining ability can't be applied (for instance, it relies on a choice made as the card enters the battlefield), then use 0.

So in the above example, the Sutured Ghoul should be 2/2 (+2/+2 from the Grizzly Bears, +0/+0 from the Lord of Extinction), up until the point where some other card gets put into either player's graveyard.

Are any other cards possibly affected by this bug?
For misclicking invalid cards meaning "I'm done," lots. It's just as annoying in most other places it shows up.

For the primary bug... I hope not. Can anyone think of any?

My initial impression of this card and implementation in Shandalar was the same as in Manalink, just without the problem of exiling and computing them one-by-one. Having to track the cards in exile, take them out of consideration if one gets Pull from Eternity'd, etc. is nutty.
Last edited by Aswan jaguar on 02 Jul 2017, 08:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: confirmed bug
Mongo's fleas no longer bothered him. But the family of goblins that had moved in behind his left ear was starting to get really irritating.
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Aswan jaguar » 02 Jul 2017, 08:23

Maybe Stitcher Geralf?

For the miss-clicking on other cards to be meant "I am done" yes it is very annoying and maybe it was expanded by clicking to no card area in menu or library to mean "I am done" to all non selectable cards, too.The clicking to no card area was there to help with the issue that many people didn't see the done button in library, graveyard, hand (and other menus not sure about this) because of the aero theme of windows.
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Korath » 04 Jul 2017, 01:16

I don't think Stitcher Geralf works the same way. X is set as an effect of the ability, not as a characteristic-defining ability of the tokens. Compare to the wording on Ajani Goldmane, Daxos the Returned, Elephant Resurgence, Gutter Grime, Kalonian Twingrove, and Voice of Resurgence.
Mongo's fleas no longer bothered him. But the family of goblins that had moved in behind his left ear was starting to get really irritating.
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Korath » 17 Aug 2017, 05:51

Phyrexian Ingester is supposed to work like this too, and (without testing) it looks like it's much closer to correct. However:
  • If it imprints a melded card, it looks for only one card in exile (I think one of the melding cards) instead of both, and IIRC the melded card ends up exiled instead of both its halves anyway. More properly a bug with meld, I guess.
  • If more than one card gets imprinted, it only gets the maximum power or toughness of the cards it exiled, instead of their sum. I think this is currently only possible with Panharmonicon, since meld is broken, and I don't think anything else that can copy triggers or make them trigger multiple times is in the game. (Strionic Resonator isn't, anyway. Are there any others? Maybe one of the cards that work like Precursor Golem or Radiate?)
  • It keeps getting the bonuses forever even if the imprinted card or cards aren't in exile anymore.
  • It can target, exile, and get the power and toughness of tokens.
Mongo's fleas no longer bothered him. But the family of goblins that had moved in behind his left ear was starting to get really irritating.
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Aswan jaguar » 17 Aug 2017, 07:12

I confirm the last 2 points.I can't test the others as the cards are not in public version.Also I confirm it has the original bug with Lord of Extinction.
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Currently working on updating missing & wrong Manalink.ct_all values for AI.
- Long term update all missing & wrong values in Manalink.csv mainly & (maybe)Manalink.ct_all
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Korath » 17 Aug 2017, 07:37

Phyrexian Ingester's been completely rewritten since EMNv2, and works properly with Lord of Extinction and so on now. (Sutured Ghoul still doesn't, though.) Interesting that "nontoken" was missed both times, since the new implementation doesn't seem to take anything at all from the old.
Mongo's fleas no longer bothered him. But the family of goblins that had moved in behind his left ear was starting to get really irritating.
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Re: [confirmed]Sutured Ghoul vs. other */*

Postby Korath » 17 Oct 2017, 14:53

Also affects Duplicant.
Mongo's fleas no longer bothered him. But the family of goblins that had moved in behind his left ear was starting to get really irritating.
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