Sally - A Quest deck ?

[Vecc]

That's precisely the information I was looking for. Thanks Dennis and Chris!

I've been a fan of building AI-friendly yet good/fun decks in Forge since even before Quest Mode, and this really helps the cause. It's a shame I'm under such a load of school work just as I finally find out about the whole new world behing Forge in this forum... It should be over with this week, thankfully.

[Vecc]

Unfortunately some of my favorite (and most efficient) slivers aren't withing the MTGForge cards ranks yet, so the decks lost some of it's... elegance, so to speak. Or maybe it was just me being lazy. Suggestions are always welcome.

Just a few things to note: Heart Sliver, as of now, doesn't work well with the AI. I suppose that the AI doesn't recognize his ability as giving himself Haste, so he only gets played at 2nd Main Phase, where his haste ability doesn't matter. Plus, his ability only seems to affect other Slivers in-play, meaning the AI also won't 'notice' other Slivers in it's hand having Haste if it has Heart Sliver out, and considering it won't play creatures before combat phase unless they have Haste... Heart Sliver ends up being a more expensive, colored Metallic Sliver.

Also due to the AI only playing Haste creatures before combat phase, the builds get a lot slower due to the fact that the pump-slivers won't get played to pump other slivers in play for that turn's combat phase. Sad.

Anyway, here's what I've got so far:

Easy

60 Total Cards

30 Creatures
-------------
1x Battering Sliver
2x Blade Sliver
1x Bonesplitter Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
4x Gemhide Sliver
1x Heart Sliver
1x Horned Sliver
4x Metallic Sliver
2x Might Sliver
1x Muscle Sliver
1x Plated Sliver
1x Reflex Sliver
1x Sinew Sliver
2x Synchronous Sliver
4x Venser's Sliver
1x Watcher Sliver
1x Winged Sliver

10 Spells
----------
2x Breath of Life
2x Concentrate
2x Nameless Inversion
2x Raise Dead
2x Sunlance

20 Land
--------
4x Forest
4x Island
4x Mountain
4x Plains
4x Swamp

The basic landbase and 'less than focused' list overall make this deck slow and clunky enough so that it can be easily beaten, while the Sliver interaction itself coupled with some efficient removal can make it for a real challenge with a good hand (Might Sliver can be mean!). If your Slivers die, you just Raise Dead / Breath of Life them back into game. If you're out of Slivers, Concentrate into more. I feel this list needs some adjusting, maybe cutting some of the removal for pump spells... but you've gotta start somewhere, right?

Mid

60 Total Cards

29 Creatures
-------------
2x Blade Sliver
2x Essence Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
4x Gemhide Sliver
2x Horned Sliver
4x Metallic Sliver
3x Might Sliver
2x Muscle Sliver
2x Sinew Sliver
1x Synchronous Sliver
2x Watcher Sliver
4x Winged Sliver

11 Spells
----------
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Regrowth
3x Repulse
1x Terror
3x Tribal Flames
2x Zombify

20 Land
--------
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
4x Plateau
4x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Steam Vents
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra

This version of the deck, while not nearly as slow as the previous one, is still not really aggressive. It's got a more refined creature selection (mostly cutting Venser's Sliver), a good manabase (I would've gone with Shocklands, but AI doesn't deal with them very well), and solid removal suite. Concentrate leaves scene and Repulse comes in, going with the deck's plan of building a stronger board position with the sliver synergy, while not falling too far behind in tempo. Some nice reach in Tribal Flames may teach the players to play it careful. On the other hand, it doesn't curve out too recklessly on it's adversary, and is still inconsistent. Probably needs some tuning, too.

Now, building harder decks is easier.

Hard

60 Total Cards

26 Creatures
-------------
4x Blade Sliver
2x Bonesplitter Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
2x Might Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
2x Sliver Legion
1x Sliver Overlord
1x Sliver Queen
1x Watcher Sliver
4x Winged Sliver

16 Spells
----------
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Repulse
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Tribal Flames

18 Land
--------
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
3x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

While not as fun/good as it could be with the good multicolored Slivers that are still missing, this list can be a killer even if a little hampered by the AI. It can potentially curve out for a lethal turn 5, and always manages at least a strong board position by then, if left untouched. The legendary Slivers are made easy to cast by the dual manabase, make for very nice post-Wrath tools, and have some fun & useful effects on them - with Sliver Legion doubling as a setup for a lethal combat phase. Acceleration with the Moxes into tempo control with Repulse, and Tribal Flames plus Swords to Plowshares to clear the path make it for a very strong spells suite, tho' I don't know exactly how well the AI handles Repulse in cases like this (does it give Repulse preference over casting more critters?). Ancestral Recall is just downright cheap, and the Sliver selection is a lot more solid than the last two lists. This is the list I'm most comfortable with, seeing as I got rolled over by it a couple times on my semi-new Quest Deck. (well, it's the purpose for Hard decks, right?)

Thoughts, suggestions? It's pretty unpolished, I know...

[Chris H.]

Thank you, Vecc for the Sliver decks.

I'm sorry to hear about the problem with Haste and the Heart Sliver. Still, I think that these decks will likely provide a real challenge for quest mode.

The next beta version will be out soon and will likely include the Crystalline Sliver and the Sidewinder Sliver. You may want to consider making room for these two in one of your decks. They look like they might be fun.

I think the AI with Sunlance will only target a flying creature. I could be mistaken. The Oblivion Ring may at his time work more correctly than the black variant. I think that this is a good choice.

The Tribal Flames, I think, requires the Basic lands that you included in the first deck. You may want to test this and if I'm right then move them to the first deck.

With the land stacking flag set to on the computer will only play a total of seven lands. On some games the computer, for some reason, will fail to play a land on it's first turn. It does not happen very often. Dennis is thinking about checking during the computer's 2nd main phase on turn one to see if the land went into play. If not, the computer could play the land on it's 2nd main phase.

When playing dual lands, the computer will play the dual lands in this order, but will skip the first one in this list:

Bayou, Volcanic Island, Savannah, Badlands, Tundra, Taiga, Underground Sea, Plateau, Tropical Island, Scrubland

I like the idea myself of giving the computer some five color decks. This will slow the deck down somewhat. Then again, this will help to provide some variety which should help to make the quest mode less repetitive.

[Vecc]

Thank you, Vecc for the Sliver decks.

I'm sorry to hear about the problem with Haste and the Heart Sliver. Still, I think that these decks will likely provide a real challenge for quest mode.


The next beta version will be out soon and will likely include the Crystalline Sliver and the Sidewinder Sliver. You may want to consider making room for these two in one of your decks. They look like they might be fun.

I think the AI with Sunlance will only target a flying creature. I could be mistaken. The Oblivion Ring may at his time work more correctly than the black variant. I think that this is a good choice.

The Tribal Flames, I think, requires the Basic lands that you included in the first deck. You may want to test this and if I'm right then move them to the first deck.

With the land stacking flag set to on the computer will only play a total of seven lands. On some games the computer, for some reason, will fail to play a land on it's first turn. It does not happen very often. Dennis is thinking about checking during the computer's 2nd main phase on turn one to see if the land went into play. If not, the computer could play the land on it's 2nd main phase.

When playing dual lands, the computer will play the dual lands in this order, but will skip the first one in this list:

Bayou, Volcanic Island, Savannah, Badlands, Tundra, Taiga, Underground Sea, Plateau, Tropical Island, Scrubland

I like the idea myself of giving the computer some five color decks. This will slow the deck down somewhat. Then again, this will help to provide some variety which should help to make the quest mode less repetitive.

I took a lot of the ideas from your initial list - I hope I didn't screw it up.

Yeah, the issue with the Pump&Heart Slivers is kinda saddening, but pretty easy to 'fix' apparently. Maybe Slivers will be more dangerous with the next version? That and Crystalline Sliver + Sidewinder Sliver could make it for a very tough build to beat. By the way, the hard list can be very fun to play with yourself, after some tuning.

Ah, I didn't know about that bug with Sunlance... but oh well, I guess it sorta comes handy to make the first list easier and definitely fits the 'budget' theme. On Tribal Flames - it only counts basic land types; meaning it doesn't require you to be playing with basic lands, only lands with basic subtypes (Forest, Plains...). It's even better with dual/shocklands.

I haven't experienced this Land Stacking bug so far... well, I guess that it's not a huge issue if it happens once every ten matches or so.

Thanks for the thoughts!

[GandoTheBard]

In my experience dual lands have NEVER been counted as basic lands. The only time cards effect duals is when they don't specify the word "Basic" in the card. Did WotC change the Oracle rulings on this?

[Vecc]

I never said they counted as basic lands, but they sure do count as "basic land types". The only reason the word 'basic' is there is because If it said just "Land Types", Tribal Flames would also deal extra damage if you had a Locus in play. The wording on the card might make it confusing, but it's pretty straightforward to be honest.

A practical example - If you control a Savannah and a Swamp, you actually control 3 different basic land types: A Forest and a Plains on Savannah's account, and a Swamp on... well, Swamp's account.

I'm pretty sure it works with dual lands - Domain Zoo wouldn't be nearly as broken if it didn't. And there haven't been any Oracle changes, it's always worked like that.

For reference - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25157

[GandoTheBard]

One word does make a huge difference. I never noticed the word type.

[Chris H.]

On Tribal Flames - it only counts basic land types; meaning it doesn't require you to be playing with basic lands, only lands with basic subtypes (Forest, Plains...). It's even better with dual/shocklands.

Wow!

I was curious, so I ran a test and Dual Lands are counted. I had two in play, giving me 4 different types of basic land and the Tribal Flames killed a creature with a toughness of 4. Awesome.

[Vecc]

One word does make a huge difference. I never noticed the word type.

I hear you. I went for a lot of time thinking Tribal Flames sucked hard before I realized that word there, too.

I was curious, so I ran a test and Dual Lands are counted. I had two in play, giving me 4 different types of basic land and the Tribal Flames killed a creature with a toughness of 4. Awesome.

Pretty much broken, ain't it? It doesn't matter much that you're using Sorcery burn when it's a 5 damage for 2 mana tradeoff. Personally, I'd find it amusing to stabilize at 10 life against that last Sliver decklist (which now requires a lot of changes, btw ) only to be double Flame'd the next turn.

[DennisBergkamp]

Yes, its cost efficiency is much like Hidetsugu's Second Rite but then a lot more flexible.

[Chris H.]

Vecc,

Let me know when you have finished adjusting your sliver decks. I'm in the process of adding new decks to the questData file and I would like to release a new version in a few weeks.

I noticed yesterday that the Aven Trailblazer uses the same sort of terminology.

[Vecc]

@Dennis: On a second thought, stabilizing at 10 and getting hit with a Hidetsugu's Second Rite would be even more amusing.

@Chris: I'll try to get to it as soon as possible. I had planned on doing it today, but got some last-minute issues to solve about my military enlistment. I'll make sure to at least get a rough draft to show tomorrow.

Also, I've just noticed I forgot to upload the actual .deck files. Oh well, at least the file would've become outdated soon anyway. I'll be sure to include them with the adjustments.

[Chris H.]

@Chris: I'll try to get to it as soon as possible. I had planned on doing it today, but got some last-minute issues to solve about my military enlistment. I'll make sure to at least get a rough draft to show tomorrow.

Also, I've just noticed I forgot to upload the actual .deck files. Oh well, at least the file would've become outdated soon anyway. I'll be sure to include them with the adjustments.

Good luck with the issues involved with your military enlistment.

Don't worry about forgetting the deck files. We all have made that mistake at one time or another.

[Vecc]

Thanks Chris. Apart from a good 2:30 hours of waiting in the line, everything went fine.

So, I took some time to update those lists today. While the main point was to add the new Sidewinder Sliver and Crystalline Sliver to the team, I ended up changing an extra thing or two in every list as a 'bonus' (not a necessarily good one, tho' ). Here's what I got so far!

Easy Sally

60 Total Cards

31 Creatures
-------------
1x Battering Sliver
2x Blade Sliver
1x Bonesplitter Sliver
1x Crystalline Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
4x Gemhide Sliver
1x Heart Sliver
1x Horned Sliver
4x Metallic Sliver
1x Might Sliver
1x Muscle Sliver
1x Plated Sliver
1x Reflex Sliver
1x Sidewinder Sliver
1x Sinew Sliver
2x Synchronous Sliver
4x Venser's Sliver
1x Watcher Sliver
1x Winged Sliver

9 Spells
----------
2x Breath of Life
3x Concentrate
4x Raise Dead

20 Land
--------
4x Forest
4x Island
4x Mountain
4x Plains
4x Swamp

Fun players don't need no removal! The deal here is to continue pumping out Slivers for as long as possible (all while working as a sliver showcase, too). I consider it to be a tone-down from the previous list, but I don't really know, considering the whole Sliver interaction and lack of removal on the player's side at the beggining of Quest Mode. -1 Might Sliver sounded reasonable.

Mid Sally

60 Total Cards

31 Creatures
-------------
2x Avian Changeling
2x Blade Sliver
2x Crystalline Sliver
2x Essence Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
4x Gemhide Sliver
2x Horned Sliver
3x Might Sliver
2x Muscle Sliver
4x Sidewinder Sliver
2x Sinew Sliver
1x Synchronous Sliver
2x Watcher Sliver
2x Winged Sliver

9 Spells
----------
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Regrowth
2x Repulse
1x Terror
2x Tribal Flames
2x Zombify

20 Land
--------
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
4x Plateau
4x Savannah
3x Tropical Island
4x Tundra

The last mid-level version of Slivers I posted felt weird - while it was not a lot better than the Easy list for most of the time, the number of Tribal Flames and Repulse drawn along the games could turn the tide of the match. It feels a lot more solid now, setting the overall difficult level consistently higher than that of the first list, but cutting in 'explosiveness'. Fair tradeoff, I suppose.

Hard Sally

60 Total Cards

25 Creatures
-------------
4x Crystalline Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
2x Might Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sidewinder Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
2x Sliver Legion
1x Sliver Overlord
1x Sliver Queen
2x Winged Sliver

17 Spells
----------
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Repulse
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Tribal Flames

18 Land
--------
2x Plateau
4x Savannah
3x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Slivers come big, fast and shrouded here. It's got a nice&low curve, Repulse and Tribal Flames helping damage get through, Swords to Plowshares getting rid of troublesome creatures and the Legendary slivers adding some spice. It doesn't feel exactly perfect looking at it, but then again I didn't have the time to test it yet. Oh well, everything's a work in progress. Speaking of no time to test... does anyone know wether the AI can handle Sliver Overlord properly or not?

I had fun building those, and here's hoping you guys can also have fun playing with&against it. Comments and suggestions are as welcome as always.

Thanks for the support, guys.

Edit: Uh-uh, I didn't forget the .deck files. It was an optical illusion.

[Chris H.]

I like what I see overall. The only concern that I have is the number of different types of lands that you have for the 2nd deck, Mid Sally.

With the land stacking flag set to the on position, the computer will not put more than seven lands into play. On some games the computer fails to play a land on it's first turn. In this case, the computer will only get six lands into play.

With land stacking on, the computer will not play a Bayou and on some games will fail to play the Savannah on it's first turn. It may be best to use no more than 6 types of land for an AI deck.

With the lands you selected, they will be played in this order:

1 Savannah
2 Badlands
3 Tundra
4 Plateau
5 Tropical Island
6 Scrubland
7 Steam Vents

If the land staking flag is set to off, the land is shuffled into the deck normally and my concern would not exist.