Can we re-examine challenge mode?

[discoransom]

generosity is often more complicated than one would wish it to be

[monopoman]

Lol @ the notion that Wall of Roots isn't a good card .

Dude Wall of Roots has seen play in many decks as one of the best 2 mana mana producers ever made.

It makes Vine Trellis look horrible in comparison. It may not be a Umezawa's Jitte or something but its still damn damn good.

Anyways I offer the compromise of saving the game in between games in the challenge mode. Allowing this feature would make the thing much less cumbersome and ridiculous. I mean once you get to round 8 with a deck for instance all its not much problem to get there over and over its just annoying. So you keep hoping for the perfect string of hands to beat each challenge while the opponent gets a bit unlucky once in a while.

[Triadasoul]

I think the save feature will be the best way to make challenge really fun and not so frustrating for longtime replaying as it is now. And this feature will stop weekly begging, whining, asking messages cause the challenge would be passable for non-hardcore fans who can play 24-hours for unlocking 1 card. But it's jatill's choice to do it or not, anywhay Manalink 2.0 is great for it's card collection and also for challenge mode for those who doesn't count the duel ai a serious threat . Jatill thank you again for making this game alive!!! )))

[Revan]

Being able to save in between games would be great.

I like the challenges, but after game crashes and some bad draws in round 8's and stuff I got frustrated to much, so I stopped playing them.

At the same point I almost completly stopped playing duells at that point, because although I only miss a couple of the nearly 2000 cards, I get frustrated playing duells knowing I can't play the deck I would really like to play.

Never "Whinned" about it because Jatill gave us great stuff already, but I constantly hope they will get unlocked or challenge mode made a bit more stable to complete.

I would also like to say that I don't understand the people that immediatly start to scream at others that have a comment about something or a request to maybe change something. It's a bit immature if stuff can't be object of debate.

If something will be done with it is up to the people that work on the project, but debate should always be possibble, nothing is perfect.

[thedrigo]

(...), you cant just say "if you don't want to play the challenges pretend those cards were never coded." We would all be aware because people who have unlocked them would talk about them and that would be confusing to people who haven't unlocked, or don't know about them.
You can't pretend they were never coded; the cards show up right in deck builder. New players of the game like me figure out how to download, update, and play the game. Then we go to make a standard deck and can't use BLOODBRAID ELF! You go to make a vintage deck, and can't use TEZZERET. That is just laughable. You can see it, you can put it in your deck, and you can lose when it does nothing.

OF COURSE HE CAN SAY THAT, he coded all the new cards into the program. This is a free program that Jatill has been generous enough to make available for all of us out of his own free time. PERIOD.
If you wanna play with cards that aren't coded or are locked, FIND ANOTHER PROGRAM THAT HAS THEM or build a deck and beat the challenges and STOP WHINING.

As for the new players, take just a little bit of time to navigate the forum and I'm sure 99% of the questions you might have have been answered by somebody.

[Professor]

Challenge mode is a good idea. It's a fun idea. It should stick around.

I do agree that there should be a way to quickly see which cards are still locked (say via a ** in a the card name or something) so I don't keep building decks only to have them fail at crunch time. Drafting is weird, too, for that reason. And then when the PC drafts the card, it works against me perfectly well.

Personally, I've tried challenge #1 about 60 times without success, only reaching the sliver deck 3 times. I'm not expecting to unlock more than a few of these cards in my lifetime, so congrats to those of you who get to play with them, either by winning or by hacking.

I've seen enough to know that a demand has been created. Perhaps there could be a marketing tie-in between donations and an unlock code???

Just sayin'...

[jatill]

I do agree that there should be a way to quickly see which cards are still locked (say via a ** in a the card name or something) so I don't keep building decks only to have them fail at crunch time.

I would do this if I knew how. Luckily, all cards are unlocked in the Zendikar version, which is meant for drafting.

Perhaps there could be a marketing tie-in between donations and an unlock code???

I thought about giving that option (i.e. pay $10 and I'll send you the unlock codes), but it seemed unethical to me.

[0rion79]

I can't but agree with Revan. Being constantly in short of time, the Challenge Mode represent a too LONG duel instead than the short break from work that I want & expect from the PC version of Magic the Gathering. At least, being able to "save & reload" would allow even "in-short-of-time" players to play the challenge mode and to defeat the randomness effect that may happen due to a bad first hand, or lack of mana, or an amazing luck from AI, that are just making it more frustrating than how it should be.

Jatill, I know that you will hate me because we often disagree so don't be mad at me if I *partially* disagree even this time about your previous motivations concering new players that want to enjoy new cards for free.
I understand somehow your logic expressed the 3 Nov 2009, 14:44 , because you did a big effort in coding the cards, investing a lot of time and energies and you want things to be fair, so somehow you may see occasional users that use your cards as "leeches" that enjoy for free a product made with great efforts.
For sure you did a great job here and we are all thankful for that and I agree with the fact that it is fair that who does more is also allowed to have more rights and privileges. And, in fact, I've always substained your right to choose which cards are in and which ones are out, since it was mostly YOU who did the cards but you are not under contract with this forum, so it is YOU who choose. Then we can discuss things all together (also because when you have 100 heads working together, you will most likely have a greater number of good ideas) and your wishes and community wishes may find a compromise, or lead to new solutions.
But this is a point: we are a community, born with the goal to expand this game for ourselves and for other users that love Magic. And that's why I don't see why other users should experiment such hard efforts or prices to use the new cards, only because they did nothing to obtain them or discovered this place too late to give their contribute. It is not their fault.
Also, as far as I remember, it has been your own free choice to code the cards: nobody has pointed a gun to your head and told you "code"! Then, with time, you've become the main coder here and the reference person here, the top authority about cards but you should see it not as a duty but as the meter of how much people here trust you.
Also, following this logic, people as Mathusalem, GMZombie, FranAvalon, or even me (even if I did probably less than the other ones), have somehow already "paid" for the new cards, since they have already given an active contribute with graphic, playtesting, bug-finding, sounds, CSV or new cards, so I don't think that the challenge mode should be seen as a "price" to pay to enjoy the full set of cards.

Instead, but it is just my very personal opinion, it would be very cool if the challenge mode would allow the viewing of some special video sequence, maybe as story mode, or unlock some game mode as the SPAT or MOMIR or would give extra art for cards, but still something that does not represent a penalty for players. Maybe those ideas are too difficult to implement since "we" are hacking this game by reverse coding but, even if by one side I understand your feelings, from the other sides I can't blame the new and old players that don't feel fine with a challenge mode that may subjectively result frustrating and repetitive and, generally, not a "fair" challenge.
Hope that this writing may help in making some brainstorming together and to see things from another point of view.

[Tattooedoni]

anyhoo... if there is any disregard I am harbouring it is only to those that take the work a few people have put into this relic of a product and who, in their first post to these boards, demand a change (or rather question a small part of the vastly expanded product available to them for free due to a few "problems" that could have easily been remedied by browsing for a couple of minutes), however politely they did so. in my book that is akin to dropping into a friend's place for dinner unannounced and ask them to serve steak instead of the fish they prepared.

This is a step up at least you managed to prove you half bothered to read an comprehend my post. Of course that understanding didn't get you to change you false assetion that I was demanding anything to something more truthful to keep you sarcasim and poor analogy relative to the topic or previous posts made by me or others.

I don't know how many times I can rephrase my point and questions to clarify for people to stop accusing me of "making demands" and "whinning". Maybe if I try analogy, because I too love it. I will just correct the above false one:

It is more like Jatill has cooked us a free meal. He cooked fish and he cooked steak. He will feed anyone at no cost. I assume he does not have a fragile ego and would see questions about the meal as an opportunity to improve and not a personal attack. The guy is obviously a great chef, so he doesn't need my approval but his meal is not perfect. Jatill is not my friend(yet) but he does feed the public. He shows us he cooked fish and steak all you can eat free. When you ask for steak he says you have to pass a test first. You research the test for 1/2 an hour plus. You can eat all he fish you want, but for each piece of steak you want you have to run a seperate trialthelon each one modified. You try a few times to run a triathelon. You keep being told that you fail. You spend more time (let's say half an hour on top of the previous research and time trying the triathelon) researching the triathelon and find out you have the wrong bike. Then you try following all the rules, sometimes you fail because the world crashes and you have to restart, sometimes you get an unlucky corse and fail, and sometimes you just aren't running good enough to beat the roofed out freaks your up against. In any case each failed try makes you start over.

No one, especially me, will complain about the free food. That is awesome. There are some people who don't even want steak, there are people who like doing triathelons, and there are people who want to eat steak without pooring all the hours into triathelons. I represent the latter and I don't think it is wrong to talk about a free meal. The cook should know that some people want the option to eat the already cooked steak, which by the way pairs perfectly with the free wine and fish, without running the triathelon. If the cook wants to leave the mandetory triathelon fine, it's obviously his choice. But people who'll eat the free meal should not be silenced from talking about it.

To me this discussion has already been helpful to this project. The challenge wiki has made the challenges more clear, and therefore less frustrating and I am the first to say thank you for that.

[Tattooedoni]

OF COURSE HE CAN SAY THAT, he coded all the new cards into the program. This is a free program that Jatill has been generous enough to make available for all of us out of his own free time. PERIOD.
If you wanna play with cards that aren't coded or are locked, FIND ANOTHER PROGRAM THAT HAS THEM or build a deck and beat the challenges and STOP WHINING.

if you bothered reading any other posts you would see me and others say over and over that Jatill is OBVIOUSLY going to do whatever he wants, and is OBVIoUSLY correct to do so as the creator of our free fun pastime. However that doesn't mean the community should be silent about our opninions. If I ask you if you think challenge mode should be re-examined, you should say yes or no and why. That discussion has nothing to do with Jatill's worth, and no influence on what he does with his code in the future. Stop acting like I am talking about your mamas, and keep a discussion a discussion. I freely admit I have missphrased some of my comments, but I have tried to motify them appropriately. I never made a personal attack but that is what I get in return.

As to your "point" of course he can program it anyway he likes. He can not program me to ignore the fact that I know those cards exsist. So if he wishes to come up with a solution to improve his work, that ain't it.

[0rion79]

Absolutely right: there is no reason to enflame this thread. It is just a civil discussion.

[Tattooedoni]

Perhaps there could be a marketing tie-in between donations and an unlock code???

I thought about giving that option (i.e. pay $10 and I'll send you the unlock codes), but it seemed unethical to me.

Charging for an unlock code would be wrong since you didn't write all that code. I would like to see you set up a way to take donations if a user feels like it. I know I would because what you have done deserves it. No strings attached, no unlock requested, but it makes sense to have a way for people to monitarily appreciate your work.

[0rion79]

Not sure about that: I think that paying for unofficial additions to this game may break some copyright, since Microprose is now part of Hasbro, that also holds Wizards of the Coasts, right?
If we keep things amatorial & free, I think that they will keep to ignore us but since this forum may also be found on google and we have a sort of visibility, if we as for moneys we could also suffer very bad repercussions from the original creators of this game.

[jatill]

I've mentioned this all before, but since this topic is currently hot, I'll reiterate my philosophy.

The challenge mode cards are intended as a reward for those who put in the effort to win a challenge. They are not a "price" you must pay.

I understand that some people want access to all the cards, regardless of accomplishment. Understanding this, I choose to deny them their wish. Certainly it will be unpopular with some. I can accept that. Not all Magic cards are popular with all people either. Some parts of this game are meant for you, and some are not.

I see challenge mode rewards similar to obtaining the ultimate weapon in a RPG video game. In some games, I find it's worth the effort and hoops I have to jump through. Some games it's not. It's my CHOICE whether I want to put in the effort or not.

I also acknowledge that it is frustrating to build a deck only to later find out that some cards are ineligible. I wish I knew a way around this, but I do not. That's why the wiki page details every card that needs to be unlocked. That's also why cards are unlocked in the version meant to draft with.

I am always willing to listen to others' suggestions and opinions. Long time forum members can attest to that, since I have frequently incorporated changes at their suggestion. In particular, challenge modes used to be completed sequentially (instead of in any order), more cards were locked, and the locked cards were secret. But ultimately, as it has been pointed out, I have the final say about what makes it in my patches and what does not.

Finally, a note about new users and my audience. If this game had 10000 users, that would be great. But attracting new users is not my main motivation. I mod this program largely as a hobby. I choose to share my with with the world, because hey, why not! I don't intentionally alienate users, but I don't feel it's my responsibility to make everyone happy either. If something is confusing to you, it's easy enough to learn the answers on the forums here. And then why not take initiative and improve the wiki yourself? Anyone can edit that, you know.

[0rion79]

It is also very frustrating to win 10 duels on 11 and loose due to lack of mana or an outstanding luck from AI . C'mon, at least allow to save & reload the challenges: if the used deck is not solid, then saving & reloading won't help anyway and thus can't be used as a cheat.
Anyway, don't take it too seriously: it is jut a game.