Beginners play - statistic decks - puzzles

[shogi4fun]

Hi,

I'm new, new to Magic, new to Magarena, new to all.

I hope I'm not boring you with thing already written in the forum (or somewhere), but I ask you to stop reading here, if you are a person like saying "Read the (complete) forum, use the search feature (till you find) ...".

First I like to say, that I'm wondering, that so many (free) Magic projects exists and they are even ongoing.
So it is hard to make a decission which to use.

At the moment I believe Magarena would be the best (for me).
Maybe sometime it could be other, but at the moment: Magarena!

If you like to know the reasons, here they are:
- I like the optic/design (I still wonder, why Forge is so popular even without background image)
- showing the possible cards to use is a well thing for a beginner like me. But maybe when you are experienced, maybe you would feel like a kid. Would be an option available to turn this help-feature off?
- I like the possibility to make undo - even the whole game could be gone back. Are there any other free magic programs supporting undo?
- I like the realization of "logic", meaning I've read Magarena has a strong AI (haven't tested it yet), the computer is thinking not too long (I've checked other programs, where the computer needs too much time) and I like the "Deck Strength" feature. Any other free magic-program has such a feature?

Reading this, you will understand that I like to say a few things to different topic:

1) playing for beginners
Sometimes (often?) it's hard to follow EXACT all things (speak: at the moment I could make 1000 errors if playing without a computer with real cards instead).
First to say, the "Messages" would help a lot. It's better (and a few lines more) than shown on the left side.
It would be nice, if this messages-window wouldn't be modal, but instead show it the whole time (maybe on the far right side).
Also moving there with mouse should show the depending card.
Next it would be nice, if you could click there and see that situation how it was. This would be almost possible, as it's nothing else than using undo till the selected situation, BUT there should be also a "redo" option to make the played moves forward.

2) statistic
As told, I like the "Deck strength" feature.
But instead each user on the whole wide world using Magarena should waste much time for creating it, it would be a great idea, to add the results at the end of the decks, so only ONE time (in the whole world) this calculation must be done and so it could be done more exact playing more games.
For example at the end of the deck-files there will be a section, where added many lines.
Each line have to contain the opponent deck (maybe with a md5-checksum, because things/decks could change, or simple list each cards), than the number of games, the level (and used) AI. And maybe also the hardware where it was run (or better a value determined by a speedtest on that computer).
And finaly of course the winning percentage.

3) puzzles
This idea I got from "westpark gamers". Look for example here: westpark gamers - Sank Petersburg Puzzle
It's about the game Sankt Petersburg and all people should have sent there score, showing all of them on a highscore table.
(For example Puzzle #10)

The same could be done with magic/Magarena in a very similar way.
The main important thing to puzzles: they must be able to reproduze EXACT the same game, which means, eliminate all random things.
The puzzle-settings have to contain: both decks with the order to use.
Cards using a cube to roll are not allowed.
Searching library is also no problem, because shuffling is only necessary with real cards, where you can see the order. With a computerprogram, it can show you the card sorted, without let you know the order in the library (or it can SHOW it shuffled, but keeping the order in the library).
Also the puzzle-settings must contain the AI and it's settings of strength. The AI must make the same moves, on all computers different hardware and independent of time needed.

Finaly there is to specify a formular for the score in the highscore table:
- one factor should be the number of turns. Winning faster, better score.
- one other could be the livepoints: having more left when win, is better
- there could also be done to give the computer more livepoints. Winning giving more additional livepoints than others, is better
- also I thought, maybe playing with "reverse opponent-livepoints". So you play till you lost the game and the score is the number of live-points you added (!) to your opponent. But maybe this wouldn't be so nice, because you ALWAY lose the fight, as you play till you lost your last point and count the damagepoints.
- also it could be any formular, like each livepoints left (good thing) will reduce the turn by maybe 1/5.

There are different variations, I don't know which would best.
- there could be ONE score-system, where you can play different puzzles
- but it would be also to "define" the score-system within the puzzle, so say: "best player who needs less turns" and in an other "best player to save most livepoints"

My fist INTUITIONAL proposal: maybe a combination
try to win with LEAST turns, each livepoint removes by 1/5.
So when you win for example after turn 37 and have 7 livepoints, your score is 37 - 7/5 = 35.6
Lower score is better.
MAYBE (ohhh, I think so ) the score should be made more variable, so even two players both witz 37 turns and 7 livepoints left should have different score.
For making them different, also use the number of cards left in library, lands on the table, cards on the graveyard, ...
(For example, for each card on your graveyard, add 1/5 or ...)

Yes, I believe this could become very well, so there would be a great highscore-table without having lot's of persons with the exact the same score.

I've written very much and hope you are not boring of reading it and maybe making it true.

Thanks,

Bernhard

[missalexis]

I'd like to echo many of Berhard's sentiments; Magarena's my favorite MTG app, in large part because of "undo" and the really nice UI. One suggestion I would like to make is to have the app make suggestions about which card the player should play next. Along with undo Magarena becomes an awesome learning tool.

I also wonder if the deck strength could be continuously calculated in the background (i.e. a background thread).

Lastly I often play via a remote app from my iPad which doesn't do mouse hover; an option to have one click show card info and double-click play the card would be awesome.

Thanks for the wonderful program.

[goonjamin]

I've also started playing a lot of Magarena on my iphone4 using the app splashtop. In this app they use a 2 finger tap to simulate moving the mouse. I found this annoying especially when getting to the edge of the screen.

I downloaded the development version and made some very simple changes to the input that I think makes it play quite well, especially when you consider it was not designed for touch screens.

Attached is a copy of my Magarena.exe (currently based on rev. 02f30b79792) if you want to try it out. I thin you should just be able to replace the one you have currently (re-download the images to get the new ones).

Basically single click does nothing so you can use a single click to place the mouse (which in this case displays the big card as on the PC as it actives mouse-over). Double click plays cards. I made the change for cards on the battlefield and cards in your hand. At first I only had it for cards in hand but I found when I got a lot on the battlefield I wanted to see the big image again, but it does slow down play a bit.

It has been years since I've done any programming (and only as a hobby with C and C++ at that). I'd like to eventually refine this to make it a menu option so you could turn it on or off in the app but we will see if I can figure out how to do that in the limited time I have right now. So for the time being there is no way to go back to the normal input and you are stuck with double click on the computer as well.

[beholder]

- showing the possible cards to use is a well thing for a beginner like me. But maybe when you are experienced, maybe you would feel like a kid. Would be an option available to turn this help-feature off?

Magarena has the option to turn the highlighting of usable cards off. In the preference panel, set Highlight to "none".

1) playing for beginners
Sometimes (often?) it's hard to follow EXACT all things (speak: at the moment I could make 1000 errors if playing without a computer with real cards instead).
First to say, the "Messages" would help a lot. It's better (and a few lines more) than shown on the left side.
It would be nice, if this messages-window wouldn't be modal, but instead show it the whole time (maybe on the far right side).
Also moving there with mouse should show the depending card.

Yeah, the message log could be improved to at least show some lines of history at an always visible place. OTOH, Magarena isn't aimed at beginners but at people that already know the basic rules. I hardly look at the message log myself.

Next it would be nice, if you could click there and see that situation how it was. This would be almost possible, as it's nothing else than using undo till the selected situation, BUT there should be also a "redo" option to make the played moves forward.

A redo option sounds like a lot of work and I have my doubts about how useful it would be because you can't redo an action after you changed something.

2) statistic
As told, I like the "Deck strength" feature.
But instead each user on the whole wide world using Magarena should waste much time for creating it, it would be a great idea, to add the results at the end of the decks, so only ONE time (in the whole world) this calculation must be done and so it could be done more exact playing more games.

The possible amount of different decks is enormous and the number of users is quite low, so I think this wouldn't work. Every card we add only makes the chance of there being a result that's already calculated smaller.

3) puzzles
This idea I got from "westpark gamers". Look for example here: westpark gamers - Sank Petersburg Puzzle
It's about the game Sankt Petersburg and all people should have sent there score, showing all of them on a highscore table.
(For example Puzzle #10)

The same could be done with magic/Magarena in a very similar way.
The main important thing to puzzles: they must be able to reproduze EXACT the same game, which means, eliminate all random things.

As much as I like the idea of some sort of puzzle element, the problem is that the AI does NOT always do the same things. Which is part of its strength and it would mean some serious work to write a new sort of AI that does what you describe.

I've written very much and hope you are not boring of reading it and maybe making it true.

Bored? Not at all!
I'm glad you enjoy playing Magarena and are thinking of ways to improve it. As you see, some things are not that easy to implement and don't forget we are only a small group of developers at the moment. Magarena will get better but it's not going to happen overnight.

[beholder]

I've also started playing a lot of Magarena on my iphone4 using the app splashtop. In this app they use a 2 finger tap to simulate moving the mouse. I found this annoying especially when getting to the edge of the screen.

I downloaded the development version and made some very simple changes to the input that I think makes it play quite well, especially when you consider it was not designed for touch screens.

Sounds good
With more people having touch screens this could be a great addition.
I think it wouldn't be too hard to make this an option, but without seeing the changes to the code I can't be sure.
You could make a clone of Magarena and make your changes there. That way we can all have a look at how it works and see how to go from there.

[shogi4fun]

Hi,

thanks all for your answers.

Magarena has the option to turn the highlighting of usable cards off. In the preference panel, set Highlight to "none".

Ooops, I missed it.
Still I took more attention to an option box instead selection.
But by the way: I can't find any difference between "border" and "theme". I also had tried different themes. Hmm, or is it defined in the themes and ALL themes are using "border"?

OTOH, Magarena isn't aimed at beginners...

So it's more astonishing, that I as an absolute magic-beginner are stopped at Magarena.
I haven't made a table, but I don't remember many (any?) other programs with this help feature showing useable cards.

But I know about such things: I've written a program (shogi-GUI), special for "experts", but later I've added so many help-features I don't need at all.

A redo option sounds like a lot of work ...

Hmm, maybe it can be done more easier with the following "workardoun"/"trick".
At first there must be implemnted a feature to save the current game.
So when going to previous moves (with "undone", but keeping the message-window), you can make one "redo" by loading the current state of the game and go backward (with "undone") one move less.

... and I have my doubts about how useful it would be because you can't redo an action after you changed something.

Of course it's not for changing anything.
It's more for checking things happen earlier.
Or simple for replaying the game.
I saw one program which supports replay. This program is Mage. You can go forward and backward through the whole game.

The possible amount of different decks is enormous and the number of users is quite low, so I think this wouldn't work. Every card we add only makes the chance of there being a result that's already calculated smaller.

It seems I forgot one thing: deckbuilding is one nice aspect of the game which people like.

For me (as told in my first post) I'm more interested in the "logic" part (don't know how to say it better, but I hope you understand what I like to say).
So I've simple loaded one of the existing decks for me and one other for the computer. This is this "puzzle"-style, having a starting-situation and search the best solution.

But I DON'T like to say, that deckbuilding is not of this kind. Selecting a deck for the computer and having the task to build the best deck to win against it, is alsmost the same.

So back: maybe I'm the only one using that decks ...
currently there are 23 decks, which will give ...
276 possible pairings.
This seems looking like a possible task I was thinking when writing.

As much as I like the idea of some sort of puzzle element, ...

the problem is that the AI does NOT always do the same things.

How that?
"Normaly" it's a difficulty part to make an engine playing different and not always the same.
If it's not timer-controled, that the engine is stopping at different calculation-points, the result should always be the same.

Oh, maybe you speak about monte-carlo technics?
But ALSO in this case (or ANY other algorithm where you are using random numbers) the result could be forced to be straightforward the same.

"random numbers" are not so random in computers.
They are calculated depending by an initialization number.
So using the SAME initialization-number will always give the same results.

don't forget we are only a small group of developers at the moment.

So I should start learning java?

[Huggybaby]

You can go forward and backward through a magarena game too, using undo/redo; I use the left and right arrows. Am I misunderstanding?

[shogi4fun]

You can go forward and backward through a magarena game too, using undo/redo; I use the left and right arrows. Am I misunderstanding?

Could it be realy so easy ... ?

Checking:
no, maybe you missunderstood or don't look close enough.

The left-arrow is "undo" (as you told).
But the right-arrow is NOT "redo", it's simply "pass".
So for example if you cast one card, then press the left-arrow (it's undo, all information about your last move has gone) and the press the right-arrow: you move is not redone

[Huggybaby]

Ah yes, you are correct, and now I understand.

[missalexis]

Attached is a copy of my Magarena.exe (currently based on rev. 02f30b79792) if you want to try it out. I thin you should just be able to replace the one you have currently (re-download the images to get the new ones).

Basically single click does nothing so you can use a single click to place the mouse (which in this case displays the big card as on the PC as it actives mouse-over). Double click plays cards. I made the change for cards on the battlefield and cards in your hand. At first I only had it for cards in hand but I found when I got a lot on the battlefield I wanted to see the big image again, but it does slow down play a bit.

This is great thank you for doing this! I was wondering if this might make it better: when the card is zoomed, tapping (once) on the zoomed (or even non-zoomed) card plays it. Otherwise it seems to take a lot of taps.

On a separate note - I think it might also it'd be nice if there were a way to select cards only using the keyboard.

[beholder]

But by the way: I can't find any difference between "border" and "theme". I also had tried different themes. Hmm, or is it defined in the themes and ALL themes are using "border"?

Most themes have using an overlay to highlight cards defined as standard. Choosing "border" will override that.

So it's more astonishing, that I as an absolute magic-beginner are stopped at Magarena.

I guess any application that enforces the rules will help to learn the basics. You have to know that Magarena doesn't obey all the rules though. This page explains the differences.

At first there must be implemnted a feature to save the current game.
So when going to previous moves (with "undone", but keeping the message-window), you can make one "redo" by loading the current state of the game and go backward (with "undone") one move less.

I know a redo function can be done but, like I said before, it's going to be a lot of work and it's something I personally wouldn't give much priority. I can't speak for the other developers though.

currently there are 23 decks, which will give ...
276 possible pairings.

True, but I'd like to see more decks added and there's a good chance that some of those decks will change in the future because we now support cards that would make them stronger. Originally Magarena was made to play with generated multicolor decks. Only recently did we add a deck editor and we're working on adding different formats. So I have to wonder what the added value of your suggestion would be.

How that?
"Normaly" it's a difficulty part to make an engine playing different and not always the same.
If it's not timer-controled, that the engine is stopping at different calculation-points, the result should always be the same.

Melvin can it explain it all, I'm sure. I know next to nothing about the inner workings of the AI's but as I understand it the AI can't evaluate all possible actions so it will sometimes take a different route.

So I should start learning java?

Please do I'm only a hobby programmer and didn't have any experience with java so there's a lot to learn but still I can add something of value to the project. So don't hesitate to hack away at a local copy of the code or create a clone. It's fun and a good way to learn.

[shogi4fun]

Most themes have using an overlay to highlight cards defined as standard. Choosing "border" will override that.

Strange, I have 4 seems (wood, granite, opal and felt) and all using "border" - so I was wondering about how it should work.

How that?
"Normaly" it's a difficulty part to make an engine playing different and not always the same.
If it's not timer-controled, that the engine is stopping at different calculation-points, the result should always be the same.

Melvin can it explain it all, I'm sure. I know next to nothing about the inner workings of the AI's but as I understand it the AI can't evaluate all possible actions so it will sometimes take a different route.

Of course I believe you, but still I don't understand why randomization is influenzing in that way.

So I should start learning java?

Please do I'm only a hobby programmer and didn't have any experience with java ...

Being able coding in C/C++ it's not such a big step to java.
Nevertheless I don't like java very much.
And it would be always a big (much time consuming) step to enter any others code. By the way, only a the last days I was trying to make little changes in an others written code, but the start was much harder than I thought.

[melvin]

I'm new, new to Magic, new to Magarena, new to all.

Hi, shogi4fun, welcome to the forum and thanks for your interest in Magarena.

1) playing for beginners
Sometimes (often?) it's hard to follow EXACT all things

At first it may seem that things are happening quite fast, but once you get used to the game, that should improve. Making the last couple of messages from the log visible on the game screen is a good solution, the harder part may be finding the screen space.

As for redo, it can be done by replaying the game actions, but it does add an extra complexity to the controls. So we have to consider the trade-off.

2) statistic
As told, I like the "Deck strength" feature.
But instead each user on the whole wide world using Magarena should waste much time for creating it, it would be a great idea, to add the results at the end of the decks, so only ONE time (in the whole world) this calculation must be done and so it could be done more exact playing more games.

I agree with beholder on this, there are just too many combinations of settings and decks to consider in computing deck strength. In fact, what I've found is that deck order is much more indicative of actual play than deck strength. i.e. deck strength is a statistical property that applies if the decks are played hundreds of times, for any small number of duels, the ordering of the cards in the deck matters most.

3) puzzles
The main important thing to puzzles: they must be able to reproduze EXACT the same game, which means, eliminate all random things.

I've been thinking about puzzles every since we had a game theoretic solver in the Monte Carlo AI, but I was thinking more along the lines of a single player puzzle where you have to find a rather tricky way to beat the AI knowing that it is possible. Something like what is in DotP.

Adding a high score table as you suggested is a cool idea and can be more fun because now you are competing against other players. It would require making the AI deterministic, this can be done. The game engine itself is already deterministic. The harder part is to have some kind of server side support for people to upload their scores.

[beholder]

Strange, I have 4 seems (wood, granite, opal and felt) and all using "border" - so I was wondering about how it should work.

Oops! I forgot you have to download extra themes.
Have a look at our download page. I think the themes there all use an overlay to highlight cards. There are screenshots of all the available themes here.

And it would be always a big (much time consuming) step to enter any others code. By the way, only a the last days I was trying to make little changes in an others written code, but the start was much harder than I thought.

Yeah, it does take a lot of time. I'm just lucky I have lots of free time and found something fun to work on

[shogi4fun]

At first it may seem that things are happening quite fast, but once you get used to the game, that should improve. Making the last couple of messages from the log visible on the game screen is a good solution, the harder part may be finding the screen space.

Maybe on the far right side? Today, screensize become widescreen.
Do you have a widescreen monitor?

but I was thinking more along the lines of a single player puzzle where you have to find a rather tricky way to beat the AI knowing that it is possible.

Sounds fine.
But I'm afraid, this wouldn't be aimed also at beginners and the puzzles will be too hard.

Adding a high score table as you suggested is a cool idea and can be more fun because now you are competing against other players. It would require making the AI deterministic, this can be done.

That sounds great.

By the way, I there would be different ways of puzzles possible:
duel - as I'd told already (given cardsets for both players)
but also there could be puzzles where the deck of the opponent is given and you have some cards (of course NOT all) to build your deck.

In both variations, there could also be the task to "win" or the other variation to build a high-score.

Oops! I forgot you have to download extra themes.
Have a look at our download page. I think the themes there all use an overlay to highlight cards. There are screenshots of all the available themes here.

Oh, great work.
I also forgot to look for more themes.
At first I thought, there is no need of more themes, because it's only "things-around", so I'm not a fried of thousands of themes, like there are for other games or applications.
But for this game, the graphics are doing a lot of having fun, they are part of the game. So having more themes here are a good thing.