Quest Decks Discussions

[mtgrares]

I posted a new version of MTG Forge onto the Google Project that has 23 AI decks with names like Frodo, Newton, and Superman. I imported all of the decks from "more-decks.zip" I thought having easy, medium, and hard decks would improve the difficulty, and it might, but I had a good time playing against the "hard" decks because it was challenging.

Download

[Chris H.]

I posted a new version of MTG Forge onto the Google Project that has 23 AI decks with names like Frodo, Newton, and Superman. I imported all of the decks from "more-decks.zip" I thought having easy, medium, and hard decks would improve the difficulty, and it might, but I had a good time playing against the "hard" decks because it was challenging.

Download

I will download it and play my next quest against this new version and its decks. Thank you.

[Chris H.]

I would like to thank gohongohon for his participation in the quest project. I see that he has learned how to export .deck files and to leave them as an attachment for other people's enjoyment.

I will download and check out your decks on Thursday. I have been meaning to start my next quest using a black and blue deck. I may have to try several different pools before I get a promising set of cards.

[Chris H.]

I checked out Rares most recent questData file and spent some time figuring out which deck is which. I provide a list below to help us workers remember which decks we currently have in the most recent questData file.

Code: Select all

Abraham Lincoln   =   AI-Angels-Hammer
Albert Einstein   =   AI-Garruk-PanWolf
Batman   =   AI-Exalted-Unblckble
Blackbeard   =   AI-ww-Soldiers
Boba Fett   =   AI-DragonRoost-Fire
C3PO   =   AI-GobBog
Comic Book Guy   =   AI-Mt-Dragon
Darth Vader   =   Rares version -> battle of wits
Data   =   Rares -> grandeur.deck
Frodo   =   AI-White-Weenie-v2
Genghis Khan   =   AI-Animas-Armageddon
Green Lantern   =   AI-Nicol-Bolis
Han Solo   =   AI-Chanters
Iceman   =   AI-Bounce-Control
Jabba the Hut   =   AI-Exalted-Walkers
James T Kirk   =   Rares -> black discard
Luke Skywalker   =   AI-Green-Weenie
Morpheus   =   AI-Elf-Pump-Mod
Napoleon   =   AI-Enchanted-Wall
Neo   =   AI-Ball-Breaker
Newton   =   AI-Aluran-Rats-CH
Picard   =   AI-Elf-Pump-UWG
Pinky and the Brain   =   AI-Assassins-Dagger
Professor X   =   AI-Artifact-Armada
R2-D2   =   AI-Black-Vise
Silver Surfer   =   AI-GreenBeats
Spiderman   =   AI-White-Weenie
Spock   =   Rares -> elf singleton
Superman   =   AI-Repulse-Control
Uncle Owen   =   AI-Kill-and-Control
Wolverine   =   AI-Kodamas-Nightmare

[mtgrares]

Thanks I was in a hurry and didn't write which decks I renamed. I would like to make the name of the deck go with the deck, but I guess it doesn't really matter. Maybe a few of the decks need to be weakened by removing some removal, sometimes I hate playing the game "can I keep a creature on the board. Some of the 2/2 and 2/1 guys for 1 mana could be removed also, aggro is really killer.

[Chris H.]

Thanks I was in a hurry and didn't write which decks I renamed.

Thats OK. We all have walked a mile in those shoes.

[GandoTheBard]

Blackbeard is waaaaay too hard for easy mode...Took a real squeaker to win against it with a decent starting pool. (Thats the blue/black/white control everything deck.) Its weaknesses were that the AI doesn't know how best to use its control cards. If it wasn't for that it would be unbeatable since it ALWAYS gets mana. Im thinking we should consider not stacking land for the AI if we are going to give decks like that. Sorry I meant Uncle Owen...Blackbeard is abetter name for it though since it steals everything.

[Chris H.]

I found an interesting message elsewhere on the CCGH forums. I quote it here as an aid to creating/editing/adjusting quest decks. This quote divides decks into three groups.

Gando had an interesting message that I can not find at this time that went into more detail and referenced the different colors that could be used for different quest decks.


In message: http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=619&start=30#p12537

[quote]Well there are 3 types of decks:
Aggro:You try to stomp your opponent as fast as possible and try to bring so much threats that he isnt able to handle them all (example decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25222 )
Control:You try to get board control through all possible counter spells and anti-creature cards and when you are at position of a total board control you drop one big fatty and kill the opponent (example decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25220)
Combo:you try to draw a certain card combination(for example a lot of mana spells such as Seething Song or Manamorphose and cast a big Mind's Desire searching in the best case top 10+ cards whilst playing them all and finding a second Desire or going for the kill with Tendrils of Agony from the top ) to kill your opponent,mostly you stomp aggro as you are MUCH faster then they but you get owned by any deck if you draw it unlucky (example decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20466 )[quote]

[GandoTheBard]

There are way more than 3 types of decks. That person is generalizing so badly it hurts my head.

A note: combo doesn't usually include cards with Storm which is sort of a selfcombo if you will thats more along the lines of synergy style decks. Not that it can't but generally you should find the combo portion superfluous if you can get a good storm engine going.
Trix was a combo deck...perhaps the most infamous besides Momastroke.

Toolbox is a type of deck. (Recsur being an example, my (r)Evolutionary Theory being another)
Aggro Control is a type of Deck (think Squirrel Prison)
Mill is a type of Deck (think Momastroke or just plain ole Wog + Mills + counters, and of course Blue Black mill)
Burn To Your Face is a type of deck (though a horrible one usually it can have surprising results statistically according to tournament records.) (Deadguy Red made a number of successful variants of this among other teams. They being the most famous.)
Sligh is a type of Deck (too many to count)
Aggro and Control have many variants.
TempoControl and Tempo Aggro are both unexpected usually...(depends on the current card pool)
Discard and Recursion is a type of Deck (Think the Rock and other BG variants)
Bridge decks are fairly nasty and come in a large variety.
Slivers...a popular archetype among the young players. (and some old players too )
Anything with Cursed Scroll could be good.
Anthing with Fires of Yavimaya could be good too. Though probably not since Invasion.
Anything with Necropotence was once considered killer.
There are so many that my brain bursts thinking of them all.

[Chris H.]

I realized that having just three types of decks helps to keep things simple.

With the AI decks that you and I created in the last couple of months, I was starting to become a wee bit burned out and was starting to develop writers block. This message and yours has helped me to gain some focus.

I would like to give gohongohon a couple of weeks to look at the decks that we created and I want to give the coders a chance to finish the several big projects that they are currently working on. At that point I would like to get started on adding a feature to quest mode that would let us have, at first, two groups of decks, easy and hard.

I'm working on a message that I will post later this week over on the quest topic that gohongohon started last week. I want to post this message after the next beta release ... that might be a good time to try to gain some focus on quest mode and start a discussion in order to move this part of the project forward.

[GandoTheBard]

You may have noticed I stopped posting decks here. I got a little tired of doing it and geting little feedback (aside from you Chris). I figure the majority of players of Forge aren't even paying attention to this forum or don't care for what they see, or are just too lazy to post anything. So my energy for it has diminished. I expect eventually (a month or two) Ill have a better computer and will be playing Modo 3.0 (and other games I need to get caught up on ) more often. Which will mean even less time involved in Mtg Forge, but Ill probably still comment as I always do.

[Chris H.]

You may have noticed I stopped posting decks here. I got a little tired of doing it and geting little feedback (aside from you Chris). I figure the majority of players of Forge aren't even paying attention to this forum or don't care for what they see, or are just too lazy to post anything. So my energy for it has diminished. I expect eventually (a month or two) Ill have a better computer and will be playing Modo 3.0 (and other games I need to get caught up on ) more often. Which will mean even less time involved in Mtg Forge, but Ill probably still comment as I always do.

When quest mode was first released, I think we all responded with high levels of excitement and enthusiasm. We created long lists of new features to add.

The high levels of excitement and enthusiasm are now decreasing to a more normal level. I feel that we should be able to divide up the decks into just two groups and that this would not require an incredible amount of work.

BTW: I have been comparing the download counts at google and here at CCGH. I think that most people find Forge through a google search and for various reasons are unable to make a substantial and long term commitment to this forum and to helping with the development.

Group dynamics also play a role. I am not an expert in this area. Granted, we are just a small group at this time and we have diverse talents.

[mtgrares]

GandoTheBard,

You may have noticed I stopped posting decks here. I got a little tired of doing it and geting little feedback (aside from you Chris).

Well, MTG Forge and this forum are supposed to be fun and I hope you enjoy Magic Online, tell us how it is.

Most of the suggested changes are possible to make but are just hard. For myself, I have to play the quest mode for a couple of weeks before I want to make any changes. What are parts of questing is fun or irritating?

[gohongohon]

Really what i play forge for is just the quest mode. Things i like about it is just playing with random decks and trying to beat the other decks. Things i dont like is the balance of colors. I dont think red is even playable considering there creatures are just unplayable and there is hardly any burn. I think Green has been done really good and i like all there cards. Black im ok with atlot of generic stuff. White is done good also. And i think Blue could be done better maybe more counters or bounce or just tricks. I think that maybe we should up the pools maybe 2 or 3 more boosters. I dont like AI stack land (seems silly and i know i can turn it off). I dont like the mulligan just being for you and i can see why it would be hard to do for the computer but you could just use the old mulligan rule and say if you have all lands no lands or one lands you can do it and that should be easy for the computer right? I would not mind if you just changed quest mode so every 2 games you get a pack. Also with no sideboarding i would make it so it was only one game. I hope that does not seem like a lot because i do love playing it and do it ever day.

[GandoTheBard]

Fun things...
-- getting new cards in pool is fun
-- random rare is fun too
-- winning is almost always fun
-- losing can be fun if the AI does something dramatic or surprising. Not much fun to lose to mana screw...which is a concern pretty much every game. Very rarely do I see games where the land to nonland ratio is good.

Not so much fun things
-- mana screw as mentioned above. Though to some extent this can be a deck building issue (5 colors? do you have the support cards for it?? did you put enough lands in? too many nonlands? too many lands? etc) it is also an issue of the way the cards are "shuffled."
-- getting a poor card pool because 2 or more colors are severely hosed and the rest are moderately hosed or you have no removal/bombs.
-- getting comboed out 3-5th turn...it hasn't happened often but I have had alot of games recently where it almost happened but for inept playing on the AI's part.
-- facing very strong decks (even weakened by the AI) with a starting pool of cards.
-- Poor UI with the sorting only going in one direction (reversing it should be a snap)
-- Land Stacking for the AI sometimes backfires in your favor.
-- Paris Mulligans can be very annoying. Ive had a few matches where one game I lost merely because I had to Paris to 2 cards to get a land. (in a 40 card deck with 17 lands)
-- the titles you get don't reflect your win loss ratio. They should and THAT would be fun/cool/wowza.

Once you win (or lose) a few games the cards start coming and you get more cards that you can play. This leads to better decks and its a spiraling effect as you know you will win more just because you have better cards. It is fun to win by using your head to get around bad situations ...not alot of fun involved in throwing men down and winning by brute force...though it is a good thing to win more cards of course.