Sally - A Quest deck ?

[Vecc]

Ohhh, I see what you meant now! Hmm.. I suppose it won't really hurt the manabase to re-allocate the manashare among only 6 different types of land. I don't even know why I put so many, actually - it was probably some weird misconception about how the Land Stacking worked and trying to make Tribal Flames more efficient.

I'll fix it after dinner.

Edit: There, fixed. Hopefully that does the trick. Oh yeah, fun fact! Speaking of Hidetsugu's Second Rite being amusing, I sealed 10 games out of my first 8 matches in Quest Mode by using it yesterday in a weird build. Gotta love having to manage with less than usual cards.

[Chris H.]

Gando and Dennis mentioned the Sliver Legion and the Sliver Queen on the first page of this message topic. I'm not sure if Dennis has had a chance to fix the Sliver Queen at this time. You might want to test playing against the deck with just the Sliver Overlord and see if that is enough.

We humans, will only have a small pool of cards to construct a deck to play against the computer in quest mode. I'm finding that it is difficult for me to construct decks for the computer that will provide a challenge for us and yet be play-balanced.

Assign the hard sliver deck to the computer and try playing against it. I'm curious to see how well it will perform.

[Vecc]

Sliver Legion sounds fine for the hard version, and Sliver Queen 's 'issue' doesn't seem too bad - if it's in field and pumping out slivers, then it's good. Sliver Overlord, on the other hand, doesn't seem to perform so well. For the human player, it might be actually pretty awesome... but the AI keeps gaining control of it's own slivers and apparently can't search for slivers using the first ability, so it's basically just a 7/7 mana-draining sliver for 5 - a 3rd Might Sliver / Sliver Legion or 2nd Sliver Queen would be a lot better.

The AI doesn't perform quite as well as it could, considering it won't be playing it's pump-slivers pre-combat and throws Repulse at creatures like Ranger of Eos and Man-o'-War... Wrath effects also tromp on the AI's overextending, which I think to be an incentive to actually put that 2nd Sliver Queen in there substituting the broken Sliver Overlord. But I did get smashed by it using some of the other AI decks, and am pretty sure it would take a lucky&developed pool to start thinking of winning against this in Quest Mode - but very possible, considering there will be the option to fight easier decks for some fresh cards. (I don't really know how the Easy/Mid/Hard division is going to work, but I'm guessing this will be possible)

Looking at it now, I'd go for -1 Sliver Overlord, -1 Essence Sliver, -1 Mox Jet, +1 Sliver Queen, +2 Might Sliver - if we're looking for better performance, that is.

Thoughts? Also, may you tell me a bit more about the plans for Easy/Mid/Hard levels division in Quest Mode? I've been wondering wether it would scale with your wins, if you could fight easier decks anytime you want, how would obtaining new cards work, etc. A little insight on that would make decisions on the decks' power a lot easier. Thanks in advance.

[GandoTheBard]

Sliver Legion sounds fine for the hard version, and Sliver Queen 's 'issue' doesn't seem too bad - if it's in field and pumping out slivers, then it's good. Sliver Overlord, on the other hand, doesn't seem to perform so well. For the human player, it might be actually pretty awesome... but the AI keeps gaining control of it's own slivers and apparently can't search for slivers using the first ability, so it's basically just a 7/7 mana-draining sliver for 5 - a 3rd Might Sliver / Sliver Legion or 2nd Sliver Queen would be a lot better.

The AI doesn't perform quite as well as it could, considering it won't be playing it's pump-slivers pre-combat and throws Repulse at creatures like Ranger of Eos and Man-o'-War... Wrath effects also tromp on the AI's overextending, which I think to be an incentive to actually put that 2nd Sliver Queen in there substituting the broken Sliver Overlord. But I did get smashed by it using some of the other AI decks, and am pretty sure it would take a lucky&developed pool to start thinking of winning against this in Quest Mode - but very possible, considering there will be the option to fight easier decks for some fresh cards. (I don't really know how the Easy/Mid/Hard division is going to work, but I'm guessing this will be possible)

Looking at it now, I'd go for -1 Sliver Overlord, -1 Essence Sliver, -1 Mox Jet, +1 Sliver Queen, +2 Might Sliver - if we're looking for better performance, that is.

Thoughts? Also, may you tell me a bit more about the plans for Easy/Mid/Hard levels division in Quest Mode? I've been wondering wether it would scale with your wins, if you could fight easier decks anytime you want, how would obtaining new cards work, etc. A little insight on that would make decisions on the decks' power a lot easier. Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't use any of the gold slivers except Crystaline Sliver for now. the Gold Slivers imho either make the deck too hard for the AI to manage or too hard for the player to win...depending on how bad the player is and how lucky a draw the AI gets.

[Chris H.]

The computer's AI can use some work. Currently, the code keeps things fairly simple for the computer. Our team is keeping itself fairly busy with cleaning up the code base, adding in the missing abilities needed for the cards, quest mode with the many AI decks that this will require, etc.

At some point, things could start to slow down and we may find that we can then start to logically analyze the choices that the computer needs to make. We then turn this into code and bug test and make a few changes. And we end up with a smarter computer AI that provides us with higher level of challenge.

Rares left a special beta version at:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/g4bjwmtnmny/beta-forge.zip

which will divide the quest into easy/medium/hard levels. I currently have 5 easy decks, 8 medium decks and 36 hard decks. I know that this is very unbalanced at this time.

I will release the updated questData file with the three questDecks-{easy/medium/hard}.txt files for a round of beta testing late Sunday. It would be great if you, Gando, AC, MrChaos, gohongohon and the others could try this out and state what you think.

The quest mode is, I think, still in an early stage of development. We have some rough ideas for what we would like to see. I suspect that there will be a noticeable difference in the difficulty of the actual decks in these three groups. I think that may be OK.

It may not be possible to have the same number of decks in these three questDecks-{easy/medium/hard}.txt files. We may create a formula that increases the odds of playing an easy deck slightly while decreasing the odds of facing one of the many hard decks. Other factors could also weight the odds of which deck we face.

[Chris H.]

Rares left a special beta version at:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/g4bjwmtnmny/beta-forge.zip

which will divide the quest into easy/medium/hard levels. I currently have 5 easy decks, 8 medium decks and 36 hard decks. I know that this is very unbalanced at this time.

I will release the updated questData file with the three questDecks-{easy/medium/hard}.txt files for a round of beta testing late Sunday. It would be great if you, Gando, AC, MrChaos, gohongohon and the others could try this out and state what you think.

I just released the update. I have not yet added in your and gohongohon decks at this time. Your and his decks will be added in the next release. Might take a week or so.

I wanted to get something out quickly so that you and others could start beta testing rares new beta code dealing with the quest mode.

The updated files can be found here:

http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1126&start=0

[Vecc]

Sliver Legion and Sliver Queen don't seem any harder for the AI to handle than the other regular slivers - mainly the same problem with not playing pump slivers (Sliver Legion included) before combat phase. The Sliver Queen 'bug' doesn't really hurt the AI too much, if at all. Sliver Overlord is really the only one I recommend against.

Now, if we're worried about how difficult is it gonna be on the player's side... I guess I overestimated what hard mode decks were supposed to feel like. Anyway, disabling Land Stacking goes a long way in bringing the difficulty down here. I went 3-2 (matches) against it playing some random RG Beats built over a 340 cards pool (lands included), and thought it was fine. And that's after performing the changes in my last post (only I left the Mox Jet in there so disabling the Land Stacking wouldn't hurt it as much).

@Chris - Everything sounds good. I'm sure we'll manage to balance the number of decks for each mode out eventually... I'll give it a try later.

[Chris H.]

Anyway, disabling Land Stacking goes a long way in bringing the difficulty down here. I went 3-2 (matches) against it playing some random RG Beats built over a 340 cards pool (lands included), and thought it was fine. And that's after performing the changes in my last post (only I left the Mox Jet in there so disabling the Land Stacking wouldn't hurt it as much).

Yeah, I just started a 10 game quest with the new files and Rares beta. I plan to turn the land stacking to off on each game. I want to see for myself how much weaker the computer is without this additional help on its side.

I also see that I made an error with the Storm 1 deck. I fixed it and will place the rev 2 version of the questData file in the appropriate topic.

[Chris H.]

Sliver Legion and Sliver Queen don't seem any harder for the AI to handle than the other regular slivers - mainly the same problem with not playing pump slivers (Sliver Legion included) before combat phase. The Sliver Queen 'bug' doesn't really hurt the AI too much, if at all. Sliver Overlord is really the only one I recommend against.

Now, if we're worried about how difficult is it gonna be on the player's side... I guess I overestimated what hard mode decks were supposed to feel like. Anyway, disabling Land Stacking goes a long way in bringing the difficulty down here. I went 3-2 (matches) against it playing some random RG Beats built over a 340 cards pool (lands included), and thought it was fine. And that's after performing the changes in my last post (only I left the Mox Jet in there so disabling the Land Stacking wouldn't hurt it as much).

@Chris - Everything sounds good. I'm sure we'll manage to balance the number of decks for each mode out eventually... I'll give it a try later.

I have spent some time over the last week creating a few more decks and editing the original AI decks that are located in the hardest decks section at the end of the quest. I am getting ready to pm the updated files to Dennis and I would like to give you a chance to submit you three Sliver decks if you think that they are ready.

Of course I understand about the health problem and I do not want to hurry you if you need some more time.

[Vecc]

Actually, Chris, with the ongoing & fast changes we've been getting around here added to the problem that I hardly had any time to play/keep a close watch in the forums for the past few days, I've really got nothing going for the Slivers decks right now - even though I've been playing the newest version, I'm still not familiar enough with the latest cardpool to make the decks optimal, and I'm really lost in how decks should be balanced now with the new Quest Mode.

I know you already have quite a load on your shoulders with these new Quest Data changes, but if you feel like it of course you're free to take on the decks and mess with them as you deem necessary to put them in the next 'patch' of quest decks - the idea is communitary from the beginning. Or maybe someone else feeling creative & kind could. Otherwise, I could do it, sure, but then considering my recent time constraints, I guess it would be better if this was scheduled for a future update on the files - I don't wanna be the one lagging something that was running so smoothly behind.

[Chris H.]

Actually, Chris, with the ongoing & fast changes we've been getting around here added to the problem that I hardly had any time to play/keep a close watch in the forums for the past few days, I've really got nothing going for the Slivers decks right now - even though I've been playing the newest version, I'm still not familiar enough with the latest cardpool to make the decks optimal, and I'm really lost in how decks should be balanced now with the new Quest Mode.

I know you already have quite a load on your shoulders with these new Quest Data changes, but if you feel like it of course you're free to take on the decks and mess with them as you deem necessary to put them in the next 'patch' of quest decks - the idea is communitary from the beginning. Or maybe someone else feeling creative & kind could. Otherwise, I could do it, sure, but then considering my recent time constraints, I guess it would be better if this was scheduled for a future update on the files - I don't wanna be the one lagging something that was running so smoothly behind.

Yeah, I understand all to well.

I find myself to be too closely involved in the quest project and it is preventing me from looking at it and objectively analyzing where we stand at this moment. I will add your decks as they are and let people have a chance to try all the new and edited decks.

As time passes, I hope that people will enjoy the quest mode and that I will not need to go in and make substantial changes to the decks.