Updates on the way.
Moderators: BAgate, drool66, Aswan jaguar, gmzombie, stassy, CCGHQ Admins
Re: Updates on the way.
by stassy » 03 Nov 2015, 13:34
Well, I updated my Backfire ticket and added Followed Footsteps ticket (I must have mistaken the card working with a Manalink duel), hopefully I got it right.
- stassy
- Moderator
- Posts: 5274
- Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 07:06
- Has thanked: 471 times
- Been thanked: 337 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by u2892 » 03 Nov 2015, 17:35
Hello, new here - thanks for keeping this magnificent old game alive!
I'm having some trouble getting the game running, when I run Shandalar.exe it sets my screen resolution to 1024x768 then crashes with a generic "Magic: The Gathering duel has stopped working" Windows error.
This is how I installed, have I missed a step somewhere?
- Unzip "Manalink3_20150325.7z" (from CirothUngol's Google drive) resulting in a "Manalink3" directory
- Run "Manalink_Launcher.cmd" and go through the automatic updates
- Unzip "Shandalar Korath preAlpha ThievesHideout1.7z" (also from CU's Google drive) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
- Unzip "shandalar-706-g478e7f9-ThievesHideout3.zip" (from this thread) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
- Unzip "shandalar-892-g4223445-NomadsBazaar1.zip" (from this thread) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
Manalink 3 works just fine though so I've been having great fun playing random duels, but I'd really like to go back to Shandalar again - spent way too much of my childhood there
I'm having some trouble getting the game running, when I run Shandalar.exe it sets my screen resolution to 1024x768 then crashes with a generic "Magic: The Gathering duel has stopped working" Windows error.
This is how I installed, have I missed a step somewhere?
- Unzip "Manalink3_20150325.7z" (from CirothUngol's Google drive) resulting in a "Manalink3" directory
- Run "Manalink_Launcher.cmd" and go through the automatic updates
- Unzip "Shandalar Korath preAlpha ThievesHideout1.7z" (also from CU's Google drive) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
- Unzip "shandalar-706-g478e7f9-ThievesHideout3.zip" (from this thread) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
- Unzip "shandalar-892-g4223445-NomadsBazaar1.zip" (from this thread) into Manalink3 directory, overwriting all files when prompted
Manalink 3 works just fine though so I've been having great fun playing random duels, but I'd really like to go back to Shandalar again - spent way too much of my childhood there
Re: Updates on the way.
by Korath » 03 Nov 2015, 19:50
I can't speak for CirothUngol's packages; I haven't installed them. It shouldn't be necessary to install TH3 before NB1, though, and your symptom sounds vaguely like those of one of the problems I ran into when initially getting this running - while some missing files resulted in a nice, helpful error message, when others weren't there, it just blew up. There's a complete list of files that Shandalar needs but Manalink doesn't here, in the "The long version" section.
There is no such thing as a generic Windows error. (Except, apparently, when Windows 10 thinks it's amusing to not even give you an error popup, but that doesn't sound like what you have.) There'll be a "View problem details" dropdown at the bottom of the popup.u2892 wrote:crashes with a generic "Magic: The Gathering duel has stopped working" Windows error
How to Report Bugs Effectively wrote:In particular, if the error message has numbers in it, do let the programmer have those numbers. Just because you can't see any meaning in them doesn't mean there isn't any. Numbers contain all kinds of information that can be read by programmers, and they are likely to contain vital clues. Numbers in error messages are there because the computer is too confused to report the error in words, but is doing the best it can to get the important information to you somehow.
-
Korath - DEVELOPER
- Posts: 3708
- Joined: 02 Jun 2013, 05:57
- Has thanked: 496 times
- Been thanked: 1108 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by u2892 » 04 Nov 2015, 01:35
The error popup was quite uninformative, the only options provided were "Close the program" and "Debug the program."
Tried clicking "Debug" and it opened up a Visual Studio instance, which said "Unhandled exception at 0x0098a000 in Shandalar.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation."
Sorry I can't upload the screenshots, forum says I'm too new. Can I provide any other information that might help?
I'll try the long version installation as well. Thanks for your time!
Tried clicking "Debug" and it opened up a Visual Studio instance, which said "Unhandled exception at 0x0098a000 in Shandalar.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation."
Sorry I can't upload the screenshots, forum says I'm too new. Can I provide any other information that might help?
I'll try the long version installation as well. Thanks for your time!
Re: Updates on the way.
by u2892 » 05 Nov 2015, 13:25
Problem resolved, Data Execution Prevention in Windows 7 was causing Shandalar.exe to fail on startup.
Solution here: viewtopic.php?p=66824#p66824
Sorry for the trouble, and thanks again, this is awesome - I can't even imagine all the wizardry that must have gone into this
Solution here: viewtopic.php?p=66824#p66824
Sorry for the trouble, and thanks again, this is awesome - I can't even imagine all the wizardry that must have gone into this
Re: Updates on the way.
by Korath » 10 Nov 2015, 00:15
Thanks for getting back to us instead of just disappearing. Those aren't the sort of symptoms I'd expect to see from a DEP problem at all - the main .text segment is marked data so I can inject into it at runtime, so it would make more sense to crash much sooner. I'll keep it in mind the next time someone has a similar problem.
---
Current dev status:
The main initial feature is to allow arbitrary counters on all cards.
The original game only really supports a very limited number of counter types: -0/-1 from Orcish Catapult, -0/-2 from Spirit Shackle, -1/-1 from Unstable Mutation, +1/+1 from Dwarven Weaponsmith, and a different, redundant +1/+1 from Ashnod's Transmogrant. Besides those, there's a slot for a kind of counter whose type varies according to the card it's currently on: it's used, for example, for the doom counters on Armageddon Clock, the +1/+0 counters on Clockwork Avian and Clockwork Beast, and - even more redundantly than Ashnod's Transmogrant - +1/+1 counters on Citanul Druid, Khabal Ghoul, Rock Hydra, Fungusaur, Whirling Dervish, Sengir Vampire, Tetravus, and Triskelion.
These work reasonably well in isolation, but the system can't accommodate any new kinds of counters that can be placed on cards other than the ones that create them. You could make, say, Myojin of Cleansing Fire, since it only puts a divinity counter on itself, but not That Which Was Taken... or, at least, you couldn't make it with counters. Manalink used to approximate the latter card by adding a counter if it was targeting one of the Myojin, or else it attached a "Special Effect" card to simulate the granted indestructibility. Similarly, Armor Thrull couldn't add a +1/+2 counter, but it could add a +1/+1 counter and a permanent +1 to toughness, which worked ok until you used a Vampire Hexmage on it and it still had the toughness bonus.
Worse, the system's completely incompatible with copy effects. Clone dodges the problem because it only changes from a 0/0 shapeshifter creature to an arbitrary card once. On the other hand, when Vesuvan Doppelganger changes during upkeep from a Scavenging Ghoul with corpse counters into a Clockwork Avian that not only can't have those, but has to use the same slot for its +1/+0 counters, it's SOL. It could maybe work around the problem by creating an effect card to remember that it used to be a ghoul with 4 corpse counters, just in case it changes back later, but that would be nightmarish to try to get working. (How's it going to recognize that it should just keep its spore counters when it changes from a Thallid to a Spore Flower? And a zillion other similar questions.)
So about a year and a half ago, I rewrote the whole system for Manalink so that each of the displayed counter slots except the extremely-common +1/+1 and -1/-1 gets another byte crammed into unused space in card_instance_t to store which kind of counter it is. Now when something like Triad of Fates needs to add a fate counter to something, it doesn't need to muck about with effect cards or try to coordinate with Oblivion Stone or anything like that; it just calls add_counter(inst->targets[0], COUNTER_FATE), which in turn either finds a slot on the target card already assigned to fate counters and increments its value, or assigns a free slot to them and then increments it.
The implementation details in the version I added for Shandalar are a bit different (in particular, it stores the assigned counter types in different places in card_instance_t), but the overall idea is the same, and this time it was a lot easier since I only had a handful of original cards with non-+1/+1 / -1/-1 counters to convert instead of hundreds of Manalink approximations, all using different incompatible hacks to get around the initial problem.
I'm roughly halfway though adding cards that arbitrary counters make possible. There's rather a lot of them, so I've been adding other minor families of cards in between. Most recently, I stumbled on Shrine of Piercing Vision only after doing the other four New Phyrexia shrines; its effect is fairly common, wasn't yet implemented, and needed a moderately large chunk of work, and so I'm currently also roughly halfway through adding cards templated like it and Goblin Ringleader and Genesis Wave and so on - look at/reveal the top X cards in your library, pick Y/any number/all of them (maybe with Z constraints) and move them to U, then move the rest to V. Some other highlights worth mentioning are persist from Shadowmoor block, undying from Innistrad block, level up from Zendikar block, and cards that let you play additional lands.
---
Current dev status:
The main initial feature is to allow arbitrary counters on all cards.
The original game only really supports a very limited number of counter types: -0/-1 from Orcish Catapult, -0/-2 from Spirit Shackle, -1/-1 from Unstable Mutation, +1/+1 from Dwarven Weaponsmith, and a different, redundant +1/+1 from Ashnod's Transmogrant. Besides those, there's a slot for a kind of counter whose type varies according to the card it's currently on: it's used, for example, for the doom counters on Armageddon Clock, the +1/+0 counters on Clockwork Avian and Clockwork Beast, and - even more redundantly than Ashnod's Transmogrant - +1/+1 counters on Citanul Druid, Khabal Ghoul, Rock Hydra, Fungusaur, Whirling Dervish, Sengir Vampire, Tetravus, and Triskelion.
These work reasonably well in isolation, but the system can't accommodate any new kinds of counters that can be placed on cards other than the ones that create them. You could make, say, Myojin of Cleansing Fire, since it only puts a divinity counter on itself, but not That Which Was Taken... or, at least, you couldn't make it with counters. Manalink used to approximate the latter card by adding a counter if it was targeting one of the Myojin, or else it attached a "Special Effect" card to simulate the granted indestructibility. Similarly, Armor Thrull couldn't add a +1/+2 counter, but it could add a +1/+1 counter and a permanent +1 to toughness, which worked ok until you used a Vampire Hexmage on it and it still had the toughness bonus.
Worse, the system's completely incompatible with copy effects. Clone dodges the problem because it only changes from a 0/0 shapeshifter creature to an arbitrary card once. On the other hand, when Vesuvan Doppelganger changes during upkeep from a Scavenging Ghoul with corpse counters into a Clockwork Avian that not only can't have those, but has to use the same slot for its +1/+0 counters, it's SOL. It could maybe work around the problem by creating an effect card to remember that it used to be a ghoul with 4 corpse counters, just in case it changes back later, but that would be nightmarish to try to get working. (How's it going to recognize that it should just keep its spore counters when it changes from a Thallid to a Spore Flower? And a zillion other similar questions.)
So about a year and a half ago, I rewrote the whole system for Manalink so that each of the displayed counter slots except the extremely-common +1/+1 and -1/-1 gets another byte crammed into unused space in card_instance_t to store which kind of counter it is. Now when something like Triad of Fates needs to add a fate counter to something, it doesn't need to muck about with effect cards or try to coordinate with Oblivion Stone or anything like that; it just calls add_counter(inst->targets[0], COUNTER_FATE), which in turn either finds a slot on the target card already assigned to fate counters and increments its value, or assigns a free slot to them and then increments it.
The implementation details in the version I added for Shandalar are a bit different (in particular, it stores the assigned counter types in different places in card_instance_t), but the overall idea is the same, and this time it was a lot easier since I only had a handful of original cards with non-+1/+1 / -1/-1 counters to convert instead of hundreds of Manalink approximations, all using different incompatible hacks to get around the initial problem.
I'm roughly halfway though adding cards that arbitrary counters make possible. There's rather a lot of them, so I've been adding other minor families of cards in between. Most recently, I stumbled on Shrine of Piercing Vision only after doing the other four New Phyrexia shrines; its effect is fairly common, wasn't yet implemented, and needed a moderately large chunk of work, and so I'm currently also roughly halfway through adding cards templated like it and Goblin Ringleader and Genesis Wave and so on - look at/reveal the top X cards in your library, pick Y/any number/all of them (maybe with Z constraints) and move them to U, then move the rest to V. Some other highlights worth mentioning are persist from Shadowmoor block, undying from Innistrad block, level up from Zendikar block, and cards that let you play additional lands.
- Cards added | Open
-
Korath - DEVELOPER
- Posts: 3708
- Joined: 02 Jun 2013, 05:57
- Has thanked: 496 times
- Been thanked: 1108 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by lujo » 10 Nov 2015, 08:53
T1 - crack fetch Mystic PenitentMoonlight Bargain (a truly stupid amount of work for a deceptively simple-looking card that nobody's ever going to put in a deck except by accident)
T2 - crack fetch Mystic Visionary
t3 - Rakshasa's Secret / some kill
t4 - Mystic Zealot
t5 - Moonlight Bargain
t1 - Nimble Mongoose, crack fetch
t2 - Werebear, crack fetch
t3 - Krosan Beast
t4 - Moonlight Bargain
t1 - Duress, crack fetch
t2 - Frightcrawler, crack fetch
t3 - kill
t3 - Childhood Horror
t5 - Moonlight Bargain
t1 - Innocent Blood
t2 - Hymn to Tourach
t3 - Cruel Edict / Infest
t4 - Magnivore
t5 - Moonlight Bargain
...keep going for a week...
You can make an entire Shandalar deck pool worth of decks with that card in every deck, that's just the tip of the iceberg -.- Thanks for implementing it. Also the zendikar enchantments, those are very nice for dungeons.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Updates on the way.
by BlueTemplar » 10 Nov 2015, 09:10
Yeah I had the same reaction when reading the comment about this card... Especially when you consider that (somewhat surprisingly) the AI is able to use threshold well!
-
BlueTemplar - Apprentice
- Posts: 188
- Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 22:47
- Has thanked: 86 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by lujo » 10 Nov 2015, 09:35
^ And threshold's just the most baseline form of that sort of thing, let's not even go into Boneyard Wurm, Incarnations when they get implemented... I get that it might've been hard to implement, but now I understand why Mulch and things aren't in yet. -.-' Thaks for getting to that.
And it's not even about the AI, Tarmogoyf into Mystic Enforcer into this is something I'm pretty much certain to go for endgame occasionally. Who wouldn't? Goes into anything with black that revolves around the graveyard. Well worth the effort to implement on every possible level.
And it's not even about the AI, Tarmogoyf into Mystic Enforcer into this is something I'm pretty much certain to go for endgame occasionally. Who wouldn't? Goes into anything with black that revolves around the graveyard. Well worth the effort to implement on every possible level.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Updates on the way.
by stassy » 10 Nov 2015, 17:58
I think he meant that not a lot of seasoned alpha to standard MTG players are Manalink/Shandalar user, so this card look not useful at first glance for causual player or Shandalar only player (like me until you posted the combo).
- stassy
- Moderator
- Posts: 5274
- Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 07:06
- Has thanked: 471 times
- Been thanked: 337 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by lujo » 10 Nov 2015, 18:36
I think that he meant that the difference between how uncomplicated the card looks and how complicated actually making in work in Shandalar (for the player I suppose) was madning. Which when I look at the effect can't disagree with. What he also demonstrated is best not commented upon, because it doesn't take being very pro to know why you'd want that sort of thing in a deck just from reading it. It's a bit of a casual card, though, most vets would use something cheaper, although the tutoring is quite strong. But they'd know what the card is for even if they never saw it before, that sort of thing in particular doesn't end up in decks by accident. Well worth porting.
And you'd be surprised at how many seasoned alpha to standard MTG players are shandalar users and long time fans, it's just that they're useless at programing so they don't participate in development (and there wasn't any development until recently). I've got at least 7 waiting for me to get the decks and the meta togather and for the rules update (no randomly missing cards in decks, mulligans, that sort of thing). And hell, if the AI ends up able to use the card, just because a casual wouldn't immediately know what to do with it that doesn't mean he wouldn't have a chance to play against it if he uses, say, my decks. They'd know afterwards.
That's what I'd see as a big draw to long-time players, they know and are mostly bored with well known stuff, but getting their asses kicked by random stuff like that makes the game seem fresh. "OMG so that's what that is for" or "I didn't know a card from Homelands could be that strong" etc. As long as the person making the decks knows what they're doing (and the AI is able to perform), everyone benefits, even casual folks.
And you'd be surprised at how many seasoned alpha to standard MTG players are shandalar users and long time fans, it's just that they're useless at programing so they don't participate in development (and there wasn't any development until recently). I've got at least 7 waiting for me to get the decks and the meta togather and for the rules update (no randomly missing cards in decks, mulligans, that sort of thing). And hell, if the AI ends up able to use the card, just because a casual wouldn't immediately know what to do with it that doesn't mean he wouldn't have a chance to play against it if he uses, say, my decks. They'd know afterwards.
That's what I'd see as a big draw to long-time players, they know and are mostly bored with well known stuff, but getting their asses kicked by random stuff like that makes the game seem fresh. "OMG so that's what that is for" or "I didn't know a card from Homelands could be that strong" etc. As long as the person making the decks knows what they're doing (and the AI is able to perform), everyone benefits, even casual folks.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Updates on the way.
by Korath » 10 Nov 2015, 18:46
Rather, there's always going to be a better choice. Whether that choice is Grisly Salvage, Promise of Power, or even something like Necromancer's Assistant will vary depending on your deck, but the card's a 50-cent rare for good reason.
-
Korath - DEVELOPER
- Posts: 3708
- Joined: 02 Jun 2013, 05:57
- Has thanked: 496 times
- Been thanked: 1108 times
Re: Updates on the way.
by lujo » 10 Nov 2015, 19:30
Well, that does depend. Grisly Salvage is GB, this is mono. Promise of Power doesn't do the same thing and Necromancer's Assistant is a 3 drop, and this lets you set up the board beforehand and then hit it for a lot of selective graveyard tutoring (not that you can't play both but with this thing you don't need to, crack 2 fetches by turn 5, take just one card from the bargain and you're cool). If the AI can use it, coincidentally, it's also handy that it's a 5cc thing. For a deck that would run it this is very much like Fact or Fiction, except it costs one more and instead of the enemy choosing what goes to your hand* you pay life. Which, for any deck that wants half it's stuff in the grave and some of it's stuff in hand is actually a better deal. I've played Fact or Fiction, I've played Worldly Counsel, I can't say this is a bad card at all.
Plus if Fact or Fiction isn't in the pool yet (I haven't checked), well, even better that you ported Moonlight Bargain ^^ Hmmm, come to think of it, is this better or worse than Fact with Psychatog*?
*that is instead of the enemy having any influence over what goes where.
**sounds like a stupid question until you consider that you'll not often squeeze more than 3 raw cards out of Fact and this can actually get you 5 if you just want to dump everything on the tog for the win and have over 10 life, occasionally. It's only 2 damage more, true, for a crazy life price, but it's an option that Fact doesn't give you.
Plus if Fact or Fiction isn't in the pool yet (I haven't checked), well, even better that you ported Moonlight Bargain ^^ Hmmm, come to think of it, is this better or worse than Fact with Psychatog*?
*that is instead of the enemy having any influence over what goes where.
**sounds like a stupid question until you consider that you'll not often squeeze more than 3 raw cards out of Fact and this can actually get you 5 if you just want to dump everything on the tog for the win and have over 10 life, occasionally. It's only 2 damage more, true, for a crazy life price, but it's an option that Fact doesn't give you.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Updates on the way.
by jiansonz » 11 Nov 2015, 21:23
Trying out Nomad's Bazaar version now. Love it. 
Not sure if this is intended, but it seems I do not get the option to pay off enemies. Either that, or even low-ish enemy types cost more than 345 gold to pay off. What's going on?
The only "fiddling" I've done with my install is to use classic frames for card graphics, and some minor things in Shandalar.ini that the reminder text told me controlled completely different things.
Not sure if this is intended, but it seems I do not get the option to pay off enemies. Either that, or even low-ish enemy types cost more than 345 gold to pay off. What's going on?
The only "fiddling" I've done with my install is to use classic frames for card graphics, and some minor things in Shandalar.ini that the reminder text told me controlled completely different things.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests