Feature Requests Thread

[Vecc]

Great stuff Chris, thanks.

[Xitax]

I currently play Forge from a pin drive, so opening the Deck Editor seems extremely slow. It also takes a long time to close the window (2 minutes). Request something to make this shorter.

Thanks!

[Vecc]

An alternative to the Sell button on Deck Editor screen would be making the 'n' rarity for new cards also showing up in the Card Shop. I'm not sure which is more simple.

[Kefka]

I always wondered regarding these AI magic system why don't they have all the cards and the ones that don't have AI, the computer can't use and you have to manually play like in Appertince or Magic workstation.

You already have 8,000 cards right, so that is plenty for the computer to use. Now just make it so the player can manipulate the game like in other magic programs(apprentice,etc) and then you can use any card in the game, not just cards with AI. You could even have a toggle AI on and off feature for yourself, as having some cards play automatically and others not could be annoying. Just leave the AI for the Computer.

Why have you not consider this approach? And are there any MTG programs that allow you to play against the computer and use all all magic cards printed? Again I don't care if the computer has a limited pool of cards, just that I don't.

[moomarc]

I always wondered regarding these AI magic system why don't they have all the cards and the ones that don't have AI, the computer can't use and you have to manually play like in Appertince or Magic workstation.

You already have 8,000 cards right, so that is plenty for the computer to use. Now just make it so the player can manipulate the game like in other magic programs(apprentice,etc) and then you can use any card in the game, not just cards with AI. You could even have a toggle AI on and off feature for yourself, as having some cards play automatically and others not could be annoying. Just leave the AI for the Computer.

I'm not sure that my answer is completely accurate, but I'll try explain. There's already cards that the player can use that the AI can't (either not effectively or not at all), so the problem isn't there. The problem here is that Forge has rules enforcement. If you had to include extra cards that are 'played manually' they would still need to be parsed by the program so that it knows what state the game and its components are in so that the AI player can react (and simply for the game to continue). There's no way that you can have both rule enforcement and free-play controller enforced rules in the same game. I'm not a programmer though, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that sums up why Forge and other similar programs can't do what you want.

[friarsol]

I'm not sure that my answer is completely accurate, but I'll try explain. There's already cards that the player can use that the AI can't (either not effectively or not at all), so the problem isn't there. The problem here is that Forge has rules enforcement. If you had to include extra cards that are 'played manually' they would still need to be parsed by the program so that it knows what state the game and its components are in so that the AI player can react (and simply for the game to continue). There's no way that you can have both rule enforcement and free-play controller enforced rules in the same game. I'm not a programmer though, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that sums up why Forge and other similar programs can't do what you want.

Nope that's pretty much it. Rules Enforcement is the key, and the whole point of Forge is to keep track of every single detail of the game without you worrying about it. There's no way to switch into "free form" mode, and expect things to just work. Some cards that currently don't work in Forge would be a nightmare for a player to try to control.

This is a fundamental design decision, which is why you have Magic aided applications (like Apprentice) and Magic engines (like Forge) as two separate entities.

[Kefka]

I'm not sure that my answer is completely accurate, but I'll try explain. There's already cards that the player can use that the AI can't (either not effectively or not at all), so the problem isn't there. The problem here is that Forge has rules enforcement. If you had to include extra cards that are 'played manually' they would still need to be parsed by the program so that it knows what state the game and its components are in so that the AI player can react (and simply for the game to continue). There's no way that you can have both rule enforcement and free-play controller enforced rules in the same game. I'm not a programmer though, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that sums up why Forge and other similar programs can't do what you want.

Nope that's pretty much it. Rules Enforcement is the key, and the whole point of Forge is to keep track of every single detail of the game without you worrying about it. There's no way to switch into "free form" mode, and expect things to just work. Some cards that currently don't work in Forge would be a nightmare for a player to try to control.

This is a fundamental design decision, which is why you have Magic aided applications (like Apprentice) and Magic engines (like Forge) as two separate entities.

Why would it be a nightmare? I can play any card in Apprentice manually, there is no issue. Why not just have the pc play on its turn and you play on your turn(kind of like real life).

I don't understand why you can't combined an Apprentice like system with AI for the computer, the computer plays its turns, you play your(manually or partially automated, whatever).

The computer has to play by the rules with its limited number of cards(which can continue to be updated with AI), the player can do whatever he wants apprentice style, no rules enforcement, I don't know beans about programming but this seems like a very good solution for those wanting access to every card for there decks yet want to test said decks with out having another person around.

Perhaps there might be some issues, like how does the computer play instants on your turn, since there is no rule enforcement and AI if off(during your turn), but these are minor to me and I am sure many other who would like access to all the cards in MTG.

[Rob Cashwalker]

Forge is fundamentally not set up for free-play mode at all. In order for a card to be clickable, it needs to have some functional ability behind it. OK, so what if we used a dummy ability that just implemented the cost just for appearances sake... Then we would have to put dummy abilities on all other objects in play just so the user could interact with them directly.. and that's assuming we knew what the other abilities would have to be able to do based on the effect that the human is directly trying to do. Ultimately allowing the human to break the rules. Also, some abilities wouldn't trigger because we didn't go through the normal rules-based processing. It's simply not going to work out.

Not all of our cards have AI, but they do operate at some level and perform for the human at least. Most would complain that this makes the game broken...
No one has refused to play Forge because we don't have ALL the cards. But we have lost players because of the limited AI.

Getting the AI to play instants on our turn was an amazing huge step forward that our players have wanted for so long. We're not turning back.

You want direct control? Play Apprentice or Workstation. You want player vs player? Play Incantus one of the other Rules-Enforced games in that section of the forum. You want an AI opponent with Draft and quest mode? Play Forge or the other games listed in the AI section of the forum. You're free to choose.....

[Kefka]

I understand the work you have already done(and dont expect you to undo stuff on my account), but in theory how hard is this idea to do?

Want I want is not available, I want to use all the cards and play against the computer(even if it has only a few deck even). I tried making 2 of my decks in Forge and both had cards missing, I am sure I will give try some mores decks, but I like to play Block and Set decks(which inevitably end up using less popular cards) so I am expecting more holes.

Please don't take this as a knock on your system, its really cool. I don't plan on deleting the program anytime soon.

[Chris H.]

Some people try out Forge expecting that they will be able to create and modify decks that will ultimately be played against real people. Forge is a poor choice for meeting this type of need.

The AI will never be strong enough to approach what a human being is capable of ... although those who work on the project do attempt to improve the AI.

And Forge will never have all of the cards available in the game for either the human or the computer. Sorry.

Forge is just meant to be a fun diversion. And it does not require other people to play against and this can be a real bonus for some people.

There are other apps available that do not enforce the rules and do not have an AI. These types of apps will let people tryout their deck ideas against other humans. And you do not have to buy cards to paly these variants.

[Kefka]

I don't care if the AI particular smart,basically I just want enhanced gold fishing. And Its not just complex cards that were missing, for example Mogg Flunkies and Ice Quake. For my Tempest Sligh and Ice Age Necro were not available. I am not trying to Bash forge, its really cool, I was just making a request(since this is the treads purpose) and asking if there is another program that has what I am looking for.

[friarsol]

I don't care if the AI particular smart,basically I just want enhanced gold fishing. And Its not just complex cards that were missing, for example Mogg Flunkies and Ice Quake. For my Tempest Sligh and Ice Age Necro were not available. I am not trying to Bash forge, its really cool, I was just making a request(since this is the treads purpose) and asking if there is another program that has what I am looking for.

Unfortunately, this is not in the cards for Forge. All of the work done on Forge is by people volunteering to work on the program. Most (if not all) of the work done at this time is attempting to strengthen the cohesive-ness of the Engine. Creating some type of free-form playing mode would not only be extremely complex, it would also interact extremely poorly with the AI. You would be better off requesting specific cards you feel are missing from your decks in Card Request forum. In the last 8 months or so we've gone from around 4000 cards to 8200+ cards, based on the strength of our card scripting.

Icequake has been scripted and will be available next beta. Mogg Flunkies is a bit trickier than one might think, due to how Attackers and Blockers are declared in Forge. Ideally, we would need to "check" Attackers and Blockers after they are chosen and decide if they are "legal" if they aren't the Step would need to be repeated. Otherwise, it can move on. At some point, these checks will be put into place, but one of the developers would need to spend some time in that area getting accustomed to how this code works.

[Sloth]

I don't care if the AI particular smart,basically I just want enhanced gold fishing. And Its not just complex cards that were missing, for example Mogg Flunkies and Ice Quake. For my Tempest Sligh and Ice Age Necro were not available. I am not trying to Bash forge, its really cool, I was just making a request(since this is the treads purpose) and asking if there is another program that has what I am looking for.

You can even add unfinished cards yourself in your local copy if you want (lots of users do this by the way). Just create a text file called mogg_flunkies.txt with:

Code: Select all

Name:Mogg Flunkies
ManaCost:1 R
Types:Creature Goblin
Text:Mogg Flunkies can't attack or block alone.
PT:3/3
SVar:Rarity:Common
SVar:Picture:http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/mogg_flunkies.jpg
End


You can enforce the rules yourself if you control Mogg Flunkies.

[Kefka]

I don't care if the AI particular smart,basically I just want enhanced gold fishing. And Its not just complex cards that were missing, for example Mogg Flunkies and Ice Quake. For my Tempest Sligh and Ice Age Necro were not available. I am not trying to Bash forge, its really cool, I was just making a request(since this is the treads purpose) and asking if there is another program that has what I am looking for.

You can even add unfinished cards yourself in your local copy if you want (lots of users do this by the way). Just create a text file called mogg_flunkies.txt with:

Code: Select all

Name:Mogg Flunkies
ManaCost:1 R
Types:Creature Goblin
Text:Mogg Flunkies can't attack or block alone.
PT:3/3
SVar:Rarity:Common
SVar:Picture:http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/mogg_flunkies.jpg
End


You can enforce the rules yourself if you control Mogg Flunkies.

Wo there buddy, I was just told this does not work!? Now I am quite confused, does this apply only to creatures? I thought you could not control things. And how do I get the correct picture(the one from the block/set I making the deck for)?

Is there some kind of place to were user can upload all the cards they have had to add this way? So other can DL them in one big batch?

[slowe]

Wo there buddy, I was just told this does not work!? Now I am quite confused, does this apply only to creatures? I thought you could not control things. And how do I get the correct picture(the one from the block/set I making the deck for)?

Is there some kind of place to were user can upload all the cards they have had to add this way? So other can DL them in one big batch?

You can't arbitrarily control aspects of the game state, but if you control Mogg Flunkies, you can choose to only attack or block with it when you have other creatures doing the same. It's still imperfect because the AI will see that it can attack and block freely (and act accordingly), and if the AI controls a Mogg Flunkies it will use it illegally. However, you'll probably be using the Flunkies in decks where it's almost always turned on, and you can prevent it from showing up in random AI decks by adding this to the card's file:

Code: Select all

SVar:RemAIDeck:True
SVar:RemRandomDeck:True

Put that with the rest of the SVars and make sure each SVar is on its own line.

This process won't work for every card, but you can make a decent number of cards that are close enough for you. The developers try not to let any new cards into Forge that don't work perfectly with the rules, because that's how they handle things (and I think it's the right system) - but with these scriptable card files it's pretty easy for you to add cards that bend the rules a bit.

In general users add cards they're interested in to their own copies and don't post them anywhere, but you can look in the Half-Implemented Cards thread to see what some people have worked on.